Can Not Ready Argue Against This?

[RayBornert]

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take this statement back and first consider the new environment in which the sorted arrive after exiting the centrifuge.


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Isn't that the question? Can they enter heaven unchanged even though their memories are wiped?

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you're not granted use of the word "unchanged" in the context of one just having their entire earthly existence sifted from beginning to end at a granularity that we can only pretend to comprehend.

if you want to postulate that there is such a thing as a broken consciousness then consider the possibility that your god can fix that too such that the consciousness is everything it needs to be to continue in the after life.

ray

[NotReady]

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if you want to postulate that there is such a thing as a broken consciousness then consider the possibility that your god can fix that too


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What if He requires that you agree to the fix and you don't?

[Lestat]

This has been an interesting dialouge to follow..

I think that what most of us are trying to say is that it's almost impossible for a loving and just God to make belief in Jesus' divinity such a stringent requirment for getting into heaven.

It would be one thing if God still interacted with us as He supposedly did in the old days. Then you would certainly have a point. There is little problem with God rejecting those who "chose" to reject Him in the face of overwhelming evidence of His desires. But I (and many others), do not "choose" to reject God or deny Jesus any more than you "choose" to disbelieve in the ogre living under the bridge. Our brains are wired to use our personal logic in the most appropriate way we see fit. I cannot suspend my logic to believe that for which I can see no evidence for, any more than you can start basing your world view according to your horoscope.

I've asked this before, and it is almost always ignored by theists, but.... If God really feels that certain criteria are really that important to be met, then why wouldn't He provide indistupatble evidence? Why would a simple man who looks up, down, left, right, forward, and back, and only sees physical things he recognizes, but no sign of God and therefore assumes no God exists (let alone a 2000 year old story about Jesus that required multiple physcical laws to be broken).... Why would a loving God forsake this man and not offer a single believable clue his mind is capable of processing? And in the meantime, let in a serial killer who's warped mind to begin with, has been convinced at the last second by a priest into believing the story of Jesus? It just doesn't make sense.

[RayBornert]

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if you want to postulate that there is such a thing as a broken consciousness then consider the possibility that your god can fix that too


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What if He requires that you agree to the fix and you don't?

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assuming that's even possible in the presence of a god that can control information at that detail (and i think i'm granting you a lot of leeway here), then i'd say god might do the same thing that any parent might do if the child didn't know what was best for them.

does a parent not get a needed shot for a child because the kid doesn't want the shot?

keep in mind a god that powerful has the ability to erase your memory of the entire centrifuge process entirely - i.e. you'd never remember getting the shot.

as i've said already, your consciousness might be just information at a level we cannot understand (i.e. the most sophisticated software there is); so separating value from waste might also involve changes to your consiouseness as well.

the freedom to choose something stupid is not as important as some think it is.

i need a god that will protect me from stupid decisions the same way i needed a parent to protect me from bad decisions as a child.

or do you think a parent should not stop a child that's about to touch a hot stove just because the free will of the child is so sacred?

ray

[NotReady]

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or do you think a parent should not stop a child that's about to touch a hot stove just because the free will of the child is so sacred?


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But eventually the child grows up.

[RayBornert]

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or do you think a parent should not stop a child that's about to touch a hot stove just because the free will of the child is so sacred?


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But eventually the child grows up.

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ok fine.

i'm a grown up.

i still want a god that will protect me from my bad decisions including but not limited to deciding not to listen to advice from an omniscient being. (how stupid is that?)

by definition, an omniscient being would offer very high quality advice (i.e. they'd be a superior decision maker and game player).

and once again, i'm granting you a very serious amount of leeway here in allowing you to assume that anybody would be able to want anything contrary to what an omnipotent being wanted you to want in those circumstances.

an omnipotent god can quite easily will you to want god to fix your consiousness. it sounds like you've not fully decided that god has the final word and not you.

ray

[NotReady]

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i'm a grown up.


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You would probably accept the fix.

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an omnipotent god can quite easily will you to want god to fix your consiousness


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Didn't realize you are a Calvinist.

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it sounds like you've not fully decided that god has the final word and not you.


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That's funny coming from someone who thinks God needs our forgiveness.

[RayBornert]

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i'm a grown up.


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You would probably accept the fix.

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an omnipotent god can quite easily will you to want god to fix your consiousness


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Didn't realize you are a Calvinist.

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it sounds like you've not fully decided that god has the final word and not you.


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That's funny coming from someone who thinks God needs our forgiveness.

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yes i'd accept the fix. again i'm allowing you to assume that self-interested beings would somehow not want advice from a god they fully understand to be omniscient.

i never said god needs anything.

what i did say was that there are people in this life that are very seriously pissed at god and peace cannot be had until they see a picture of god apologizing to them - the crucifixion is just such a picture. there are a lot of people in this world that feel that god sinned against them for creating this mess and/or allowing it to happen - they build up anger on the subject over time - there's no way to get rid of that anger without an apology.

ray