Awkward bubble spot

[curtains]

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Curtains,

Why would you raise to 800 here instead of just a min raise or something like that in villains spot? Won't everyone at the table treat any raise by the short stack as some sort of pseudo all-in and react the same way to it?

How weak of a hand would you need to make this less than all-in raise. It seems like you can't really make this play with aces since it is going to win often enough even against two opponents.

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Doesnt have to be 800, you basically want to raise the least amount possible that will have AT LEAST the same effect as an allin. In these cases raising less often has a better effect because it reduces the chance of multiple opponents.

What you don't want to do is raise so little that its very cheap for a bunch of people to call you preflop. I don't like a minraise in this particular spot. In a lot of cases, even if its folded to the BB, they can call and see if they hit a good flop with whatever kind of hand they have, or they can do a stop and go, which can always be a bit annoying.

[curtains]

My main point in this thread, is that there are certain cases where a Hero will have like 1200 chips, with 200-400 blinds or whatever. In these cases it's almost indisputable, that it's slightly better to raise to 1199 instead of 1200, if you are the shortest stack. There is almost zero argument you can make why this raise is worse, yet there are some small arguments you can make as to why it's better.

After you determine this, you then try to raise as small an amount as possible so that your small benefits of not raising all your chips, are still present, without giving too good a price to the opponents and convincing them to call when they would have otherwise folded.

This is just one of a few plays that I specifically avoided talking about when I was active playing SnGs. I didn't hide much but due to the extreme annoyingness of dealing with lots of opponents doing this, I decided it was prudent.

[BradleyT]

Well UTG is making that raise for multiple reasons - one of which is fold equity obviously. I think his fold equity is much higher betting 800 than mini-raising. I defend mini-raises with a wide range in the BB even with a smallish stack like originally posted - the price is decent and being first to act HU gives me some post flop FE making up for the small bit of lost equity we may have acquired by calling the mini-raise preflop.

[sebbb]

thanks again. I think this thread should be buried deep in the STTF...

[Shillx]

There is no way -5% can be right. It is -0.9% against a top 25% SB open. Add in the dead 800 and it is easily +EV. That said, UTG would have to be a real idiot to fold this hand. Curtains point is a good one but only if you intend to get the chips in (unless everyone decides to go all-in behind or something crazy). I can't imagine folding being good against two reasonable ranges given the stack sizes. I would def go all-in though as calling has no upside and can only cost us (barring a very unlikely turn/river parlay).

[djj6835]

[ QUOTE ]
Well UTG is making that raise for multiple reasons - one of which is fold equity obviously. I think his fold equity is much higher betting 800 than mini-raising. I defend mini-raises with a wide range in the BB even with a smallish stack like originally posted - the price is decent and being first to act HU gives me some post flop FE making up for the small bit of lost equity we may have acquired by calling the mini-raise preflop.



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Yeah a min raise was probably a bad example. Maybe something more along the lines of 500.

[Mike MacIntosh]

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Push AI. UTG will have to beat both you and the SB in order for you to finish OTM.

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Yeah but what if UTG folds, getting what seems to him to be a close to 50/50 chance to instantly be ITM. Honestly this probably isn't the worst scenario in this particular case, but sometimes it can be more annoying.

FWIW I would fold here as the BB, but dunno if Im right.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no doubt that this is very close between folding and pushing. Also you make a very good point about the UTG's raise amount. It is ingenious. It would be nice to know if he did this was as a well thought out bet, or simply an inexperienced player making a correct play by accident (for this reason, it would be nice to know the buy-in of this SNG). With an actual read I could defiantly find a fold in this spot. I like the idea of not putting any of our chips at risk, with a chance to get ITM.

Given the situation I have to push. We have a good portion of our stack invested in this hand. We have a strong hand that is ahead of the UTG's range. He is going to be the BB next hand, so he could be making this play with ATC. We are most likely going to be in a 3-way AI situation. Where the UTG will be forced to beat two hands in order for us to finish OTM. In addition, there is a lot of equity to be gain when we actually win the showdown.

If UTG folds, leaving himself with less than a crumb, good for him...he made a great play...and it will be one that I will incorporate into my own game.

[StregaChess]

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What does UTGs weird raise mean?

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OP did not mentioned the site or else I missed it, so could it be a site that's got that damn slider bar thingy?
Is it possible that UTG's weird raise is actually a mouse slip and he really wanted to go all-in and just happen to drop his mouse on an even 800.

I know that sounds stupid and crazy but so is his bet... if that's possible I'm pushing....

Feel free to toss tomatoes at me..

(Edit)

I'm glad I posted before reading any further.
After reading Curtains post all I can say is...
WOW....
Damn.. now I'm tossing tomatoes at myself!

[sebbb]

I don't think it matters whether his raise was an accident or not. Whether UTG is good or not, he will realize that he's getting a good chance to get ITM if you push and he folds.

I still don't know if I would call or fold here. Both put you in an awkward situation.

[sbj]

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Everyone who is still playing SnGs, feel free to thank me for making them much more annoying.

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I thank you!