A Free-for-All on Science and Religion

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> The Bible says, not only that God created all things but that all things constantly depend on Him. A sparrow doesn't fall to the ground apart from the Father's will. Science can never comment on this.
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Then I ask you, what is the point of prayer? You are saying it is God's will when people go hungry, die of cancer, or lose their child after a horrible accident.

Is it your contention that you can petition the Lord with prayer?

[NotReady]

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Then I ask you, what is the point of prayer?


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There are several reasons for prayer. None of them are to inform God of what you need or desire. The pupose of prayer is to thank God for His blessing, to remind us of our dependence on Him, to confess our sins and shortcomings, to meditate on Him, and to make petitions for others and ourselves. It is a form of praise and worship.

If I ask Him for something I am admitting I need Him. Even for my daily bread. Even if I was a billionaire, I should ask Him for my daily bread.

[moneyfaucet]

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Then I ask you, what is the point of prayer?


[/ QUOTE ]

There are several reasons for prayer. None of them are to inform God of what you need or desire. The pupose of prayer is to thank God for His blessing, to remind us of our dependence on Him, to confess our sins and shortcomings, to meditate on Him, and to make petitions for others and ourselves. It is a form of praise and worship.

If I ask Him for something I am admitting I need Him. Even for my daily bread. Even if I was a billionaire, I should ask Him for my daily bread.

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You should ask Him to make you less ignorant then.

[NotReady]

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You should ask Him to make you less ignorant then.


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I pray for wisdom continually.

[John21]

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A sparrow doesn't fall to the ground apart from the Father's will. Science can never comment on this.


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Sure science does - it's called gravity.

God could have created all the laws of the universe, and while not everyone will agree with that claim, I think most would at least grant its possibility.

I happen to believe in a Creator, but where I run into problems with the majority of religions is this idea of intervention. Out of nothing came the creation of the cosmos, and with that the potential of a planet forming that had the potential for life. Then out of that potential for life came a being that has free-will.

That's plenty to be grateful for in my mind, without even attributing the whole process to divine origin. I'm grateful for it all, but what I'm most grateful for is, at least the impression of, a free-will. Not only do we get all this, but we also have the ability to remove ourselves from some of the deterministic forces every other element of nature is bound by.

But with a stroke of a pen, religion attempts to usurp this gratitude that should be directed towards a God or a Creator and claim it for itself. And it does this in a very subtle way - by ordaining that God intervenes. No matter how you twist it around, once you grant that God intervenes, you deny free-will, and ultimately deny God the gratitude of a being who has it.

In my mind, belief in God is simply the gratitude I feel for the gifts He has given me. And the way I see it, denying the greatest of those gifts, free-will, is the greatest sacrilege I could commit.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> Even if I was a billionaire, I should ask Him for my daily bread. </font>

I understand asking forgiveness for your sins, but what is the point in asking Him for your daily bread? You stated whatever is God's will, will be. Asking for something you do not have, is to ask God for something not of His will. That seems disrespectful. It might sound like I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Also, if you are suffering it is God's will. So what are your blessings? Is it simply that you are fortunate enough to have found and know God? If so, isn't this (along with forgiveness), the ONLY things you should pray for? Everything else is to question God's wisdon. That's what seems disrespectful to me. Assuming you believe God is omnipotent.

[keith123]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> Even if I was a billionaire, I should ask Him for my daily bread. </font>

I understand asking forgiveness for your sins, but what is the point in asking Him for your daily bread? You stated whatever is God's will, will be. Asking for something you do not have, is to ask God for something not of His will. That seems disrespectful. It might sound like I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Also, if you are suffering it is God's will. So what are your blessings? Is it simply that you are fortunate enough to have found and know God? If so, isn't this (along with forgiveness), the ONLY things you should pray for?

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have you ever seen trading places? i wonder is ackroyd prayed for his daily bread.

[NotReady]

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You stated whatever is God's will, will be.


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We pray for our daily bread because Jesus said we should. We understand the reason for this is because all that we receive is by grace. We work because God says to - "He who will not work, neither let him eat", yet the Bible also says "What do you have that you have not received?".

In theology this comes under the heading of secondary or proximate cause. God has an eternal plan by which all things are known to Him and under His control. Yet we are to be involved in life, to pray, study work, etc., because we don't know the details of His plan and because His plan includes the concept of proximate causes.

But there is mystery here, past any human understanding I've found so far. God is omnipotent and omniscient, yet what we do as humans matters. I can't explain it. But it is only because of God that what we do matters. Under any non-theistic world view we don't even amount to automotons, we are less than nothing, free will is impossible, human responsibility is absurd, and all human hopes, dreams and loves are illusory.

[NotReady]

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Sure science does - it's called gravity.


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I'm glad science has finally come around - please email Dawkins at once, I don't think he's heard yet.

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No matter how you twist it around, once you grant that God intervenes, you deny free-will, and ultimately deny God the gratitude of a being who has it.


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I don't follow the logic of this. Take an analogy - you tell your child not to stick his hand in the fire then leave him alone but watch him. Just when he's about to stick his hand in the fire you stop him. Did you prevent him from exercising free will?

Of course, the larger reality is much more complex. God didn't stop Adam, and we all got burned. Some say genuine free will ceased at that time and is then restored through conversion to Christ. Others say each human has free will at least concerning their response to God, and that response determines their destiny. At any rate, the Bible clearly teaches that God is sovereign and man is responsible. It's difficult to go past that, but nowhere does the Bible hint that God's intervention in this universe absolves man of responsibility and I don't see any logical requirement that it should.

[vhawk01]

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Sure science does - it's called gravity.


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I'm glad science has finally come around - please email Dawkins at once, I don't think he's heard yet.

[ QUOTE ]

No matter how you twist it around, once you grant that God intervenes, you deny free-will, and ultimately deny God the gratitude of a being who has it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow the logic of this. Take an analogy - you tell your child not to stick his hand in the fire then leave him alone but watch him. Just when he's about to stick his hand in the fire you stop him. Did you prevent him from exercising free will?

Of course, the larger reality is much more complex. God didn't stop Adam, and we all got burned. Some say genuine free will ceased at that time and is then restored through conversion to Christ. Others say each human has free will at least concerning their response to God, and that response determines their destiny. At any rate, the Bible clearly teaches that God is sovereign and man is responsible. It's difficult to go past that, but nowhere does the Bible hint that God's intervention in this universe absolves man of responsibility and I don't see any logical requirement that it should.

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Terrible analogy. Real analogy:

You teach your child that it is wrong to put his hand in fire, then you leave the room to watch him. You then neglect to create or allow the concept of fire to exist anywhere in the world. Did you interfere with your child's free will?