1989 NFL draft- Deion vs Barry Sanders

[PokerFink]

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Ask anyone right now if they would rather have LaDainian Tomlinson or Champ Bailey, ( I can't some up with a comparable contemporary QB to TA, as Brady is lots more talented, IMHO)

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Champ Bailey.

Check out my thread, and see how many people are saying Champ.

[Daliman]

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Barry>Deion>Troy

You've got probably the best RB ever, and you are comparing him to one of the best ever cover guys who is also a great punt returner, yet is worthless 50% of the plays, as he can't tackle, and a very good QB who benefited tremendously from having a TON of talent around him, and was never considered the among even the top 3 QB's while he played.

QB's are great and all, but as you saw when Buerlein came in when TA was injured, on that team, anyone half decent coulda done really well.

Ask anyone right now if they would rather have LaDainian Tomlinson or Champ Bailey, ( I can't some up with a comparable contemporary QB to TA, as Brady is lots more talented, IMHO)

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And they'd say 'Champ Bailey'.

LT is having a sicko season, but there are several other backs who are capable of doing what he does. What other corners are comparable to Bailey right now?

Not to mention that Barry Sanders, while he could win a game all by himself, often made it difficult on the Lions by forcing so many 2nd and 12 situations.

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Actually, this is a bad comparison too, as Bailey can defend the run, but people who vote for MVP can and DO vote for defensive players, and I don't see Champ getting many MVP votes. Of course this is biased towards offense, but seriously, think about it;

People who KNOW football do all the actual drafting of players. How often is the first cornerback taken before the first running back, and how much more often are RB's taken in the first round than CB's? And don;t say this is just a bias; these are people looking to improve their own team that know far more about football than anyone n this board ever will.

Also, about this;
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Not to mention that Barry Sanders, while he could win a game all by himself, often made it difficult on the Lions by forcing so many 2nd and 12 situations.

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Yes, BS was often among the league leaders in negative yardage plays, but considering he averaged 5 YPC for his career and NEVER averaged less than 4.3, he made enough 15 yard runs on 2nd and 12 to make up for it. I'm sure any team in the league would take being put in those situations a few times a game for a 5YPC average. Lots of that was just that detriot's O line sucked most of the time, and when fontes was there, there were'nt many people blocking for him; they were all gioing out for passes. Also, remember that for most of his years there, opponents had a "Stop Barry, and you stop Detroit" mentality. Barry pulled some pretty bad Lions teams out of the muck, and I shudder to think what he could have done behind Dallas's O line.

I saw a stat one year where they compared how far Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders ran before first contact. For ES, it was like 2.7 yards before first contact, for BS, it was like like .3 yards.

[Daliman]

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Daliman+Importance of QB vs. RB argument?

I'm not touching that one.

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Of COURSE a QB is more important than a RB, but that's not the question here.

[Iconoclastic]

I love how Barry is dominating the poll yet most of the people posting are not behind him.

[Jeff W]

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Daliman+Importance of QB vs. RB argument?

I'm not touching that one.

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Of COURSE a QB is more important than a RB, but that's not the question here.

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[Triumph36]

Daliman,

Most of the teams drafting RBs high are fools. There are a high percentage of RB picks that are busts. Meanwhile, Denver just pulls two guys off the scrap heap and they can run at 4.3 YPC. Why? Because their line is good. Teams take RBs early because it's a sexy pick, not because they are smarter than you or I. If they considered the fact that some teams around the league are able to run at will with anyone they throw out there, they'd realize it's not the back but the line.

It's rare that a back has the ability of Deion or Champ Bailey. I wouldn't vote Champ Bailey as MVP either, but an RB should also never be MVP according to this either, and yet they so often are. Also note that Bailey and Sanders are considered head and shoulders above their would-be competition - quick, name 5 other 'shutdown' corners in the NFL without looking at rosters. McAllister, uhhh one of those guys from Carolina, and that other guy. Really, there aren't many, and they're worth it to have. Do you think injuries aside that Washington made a good deal getting Portis?

Barry Sanders wasn't going to turn into a 2500 yard a season back if that's the question. He's not Bo Jackson from Tecmo Super Bowl. Obviously he was a great back, but again, even the greatest backs are somewhat disposable.

[lastchance]

As much as I'd probably rather have Bailey, the fact that most people don't know good CB's is partly somewhat simply because CB is a less glamorous position, right?

[Daliman]

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Daliman+Importance of QB vs. RB argument?

I'm not touching that one.

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Of COURSE a QB is more important than a RB, but that's not the question here.

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Oh, lol, ok gotcha.

No worries, as long as you keep it clean, I do too. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Daliman]

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Daliman,

Most of the teams drafting RBs high are fools. There are a high percentage of RB picks that are busts. Meanwhile, Denver just pulls two guys off the scrap heap and they can run at 4.3 YPC. Why? Because their line is good. Teams take RBs early because it's a sexy pick, not because they are smarter than you or I. If they considered the fact that some teams around the league are able to run at will with anyone they throw out there, they'd realize it's not the back but the line.

It's rare that a back has the ability of Deion or Champ Bailey. I wouldn't vote Champ Bailey as MVP either, but an RB should also never be MVP according to this either, and yet they so often are. Also note that Bailey and Sanders are considered head and shoulders above their would-be competition - quick, name 5 other 'shutdown' corners in the NFL without looking at rosters. McAllister, uhhh one of those guys from Carolina, and that other guy. Really, there aren't many, and they're worth it to have. Do you think injuries aside that Washington made a good deal getting Portis?

Barry Sanders wasn't going to turn into a 2500 yard a season back if that's the question. He's not Bo Jackson from Tecmo Super Bowl. Obviously he was a great back, but again, even the greatest backs are somewhat disposable.

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It appears you and I are going to have to strongly disagree again, as most NFL teams are smart enough IMHO to at least TRY to pick the player they feel is best for their team, and not just the "sexy" pick, although that does also have value on its own. The % of great RB's being busts is likely not much higher than the % of great DB's being bustos, but really, your statement just bolsters the point that a truly GREAT RB is that much MORE valuable if your statement is true.

Also, OK, the shutdown corner does his job, which is stopping the opponents best reciever. That's like, what 5-7 plays a game that they have a specific direct impact on? Whereas a player like LT has 20-25 touches a game. Obviously if the line is good, the RB will perform better, but to say they are somewhat disposable is ridiculous.

Barry had 2053 rushing yards in 1997. To say he could have had 2500( your words, not mine) may sound like a bit of a stretch, but Marvin Harrison broke the single season rececptions record buy more than 20%, and LT looks poised to break the TD record by a similar #, so it's definitely NOT a stretch.

[Triumph36]

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Daliman,

Most of the teams drafting RBs high are fools. There are a high percentage of RB picks that are busts. Meanwhile, Denver just pulls two guys off the scrap heap and they can run at 4.3 YPC. Why? Because their line is good. Teams take RBs early because it's a sexy pick, not because they are smarter than you or I. If they considered the fact that some teams around the league are able to run at will with anyone they throw out there, they'd realize it's not the back but the line.

It's rare that a back has the ability of Deion or Champ Bailey. I wouldn't vote Champ Bailey as MVP either, but an RB should also never be MVP according to this either, and yet they so often are. Also note that Bailey and Sanders are considered head and shoulders above their would-be competition - quick, name 5 other 'shutdown' corners in the NFL without looking at rosters. McAllister, uhhh one of those guys from Carolina, and that other guy. Really, there aren't many, and they're worth it to have. Do you think injuries aside that Washington made a good deal getting Portis?

Barry Sanders wasn't going to turn into a 2500 yard a season back if that's the question. He's not Bo Jackson from Tecmo Super Bowl. Obviously he was a great back, but again, even the greatest backs are somewhat disposable.

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It appears you and I are going to have to strongly disagree again, as most NFL teams are smart enough IMHO to at least TRY to pick the player they feel is best for their team, and not just the "sexy" pick, although that does also have value on its own. The % of great RB's being busts is likely not much higher than the % of great DB's being bustos, but really, your statement just bolsters the point that a truly GREAT RB is that much MORE valuable if your statement is true.

Also, OK, the shutdown corner does his job, which is stopping the opponents best reciever. That's like, what 5-7 plays a game that they have a specific direct impact on? Whereas a player like LT has 20-25 touches a game. Obviously if the line is good, the RB will perform better, but to say they are somewhat disposable is ridiculous.

Barry had 2053 rushing yards in 1997. To say he could have had 2500( your words, not mine) may sound like a bit of a stretch, but Marvin Harrison broke the single season rececptions record buy more than 20%, and LT looks poised to break the TD record by a similar #, so it's definitely NOT a stretch.

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There are a lot of dubious comparisons here.

1: A shutdown corner affects 5-7 pass plays a game, whereas a running back touches the ball 20, ergo he is more valuable.

This is incorrect on the face of it. While running backs get the ball more, they also tend to get less yards per play than a wide receiver, especially an elite wideout. In addition, cornerbacks are able to make interceptions which are often more of a swing in a game (e.g. Bailey's red zone INT vs. the Patriots in last year's playoffs). Also, having a shutdown corner means you can focus more on the other side of the field because you're pretty sure they won't throw to that one side.

2. NFL teams are good enough to select the team that will impact their team most

Some NFL front offices don't properly understand the concept of 'replacement level' players. A team like Minnesota is smart enough to recognize that putting a guy like Chester Taylor behind a solid offensive line is good enough. (What they've done with the rest of their team, we'll leave out). A team like Oakland overpays for Lamont Jordan because 'they think they need an RB' and then leaves him with no o-line. The point I'm trying to make is that unless you know for certain the guy you're getting is elite-level, it is probably not worth squandering a 1st round pick and/or tons of money in salary cap room, because there are all sorts of guys floating around the NFL who can give you 4 yards a carry and 1000 yards a season. The Patriots won a Super Bowl with Antowain Smith as their feature back. The Bears lavished Cedric Benson with a huge deal and then found a back just as good in 'bust' Thomas Jones who all of the sudden became good in Chicago.

Question: Was Edgerrin James good in Indy and not now? What happened to him?

The point is that while there are many guys out there like LT2 (Alexander, S. Jackson, T. Barber, Gore, etc.), there's only one or two like Champ Bailey, making him more valuable.

3. Barry Sanders could've rushed for 2,500 yards

I doubt it. If Barry Sanders was with a good team, he probably gains about the same amount of yards - yes, he has a better offensive line, but those teams would've been dominant and Barry would've been spending the 4th quarter on the sidelines. Hell, Sherman Williams looked like a great running back too when Dallas put him in during garbage time, right? What ever happened to him? And Kenneth Davis, he looked great too with the Bills - why didn't he turn into a star?