paging Lee Jones

[BB?]

You got owned so hard William. GG.

[HSB]

You know, most of the time I think William is an anoying pretentious blowhard but I think he's right here.

The online game isn't the same as the live game that's just reality.

When the game is under attack the way it is the sites should be bending over backwards to not only be on the up and up but look like they are on the up and up.

I sent Stars an e-mail asking them to reconsider their position on this issue.

[William]

Ok, haha.

Let me add that I undestand perfectly that it is not easy for Stars to do something here. Bottom line is that there are always 2 players left and they can in principle do whatever they want. However, these kind of situations occur so often that it is difficult to keep arguing that they play like that for whatever reason they chose and that it is not Stars place to tell them what to do.
The game has no integrity and everybody knows it. It takes a little courage to rule but it has to be done.

How can anybody think that it is ok to have a game where a group of people just sit there to take newcomers money and not eachother's?

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]
How can anybody think that it is ok to have a game where a group of people just sit there to take newcomers money and not eachother's?

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, those two players are not capable of taking the other players' money.

[William]

When I played live, the biggest game in town was held by this megabandit. It was the same scenario. There were 8 seats at the table and 5, maybe 6 of them were occupied by people that had an agreement with the house. It was all about getting as much as possible from the 2/3 idiots that showed up that day, then the group would share their money. I was asked to work with them many times (and no, I didn't) and I believe that the fish knew what was going on, but fish will always be fish, no matter what and they kept coming back.

Obviously the ones that do this online have done it before live. The game just moved somewhere else.

[William]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can anybody think that it is ok to have a game where a group of people just sit there to take newcomers money and not eachother's?

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, those two players are not capable of taking the other players' money.

[/ QUOTE ]


Not worth much I am afraid because (blinds x 80 times x 8 tables + occasionaly an extra bet or two and a turn bet as well) adds to a lot of money at the end of the session.

[autobet]

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars takes potential collusion very seriously, and we have state of
the art systems to detect and counter it, as well as a dedicated Collusion
Investigation Team and Security department working 24 hours a day, 7 days
a week, to ensure that you play in games that are fair and safe.

As you know, both ElkY and twin-caracas are high-profile players in the
online world, and as such, any unusual action they take comes under
scrutiny. Every time a player like ElkY checks pocket aces on the river,
or raises in first position with rags, we get an email from a concerned
individual wondering if they are cheating. Of course we investigate all of
these complaints, and players like ElkY and twin-caracas are reviewed
frequently as a result.

We have never found anything to make us believe that either ElkY or twin-
caracas is working with another player to the detriment of others.

In this particular hand, it is clear that for whatever reason, ElkY and
twin-caracas chose not to bet their strong hands against one another. Note
however that this is a heads-up pot, and is a cash game, not a tournament.
The other players are not affected in any way by their decision to check
it down - they have no legitimate interest in what happens.

If this had been a tournament, the equity of the other players at the
table would have been significantly affected by the decision, and we would
have grounds to take action. We would also possibly have reason to take
action if a third player had been present in the pot. However this was not
the case, and we have plenty of evidence to show that ElkY and twin-
caracas do play strongly against each other when other players are
involved.

Also note that there is no evidence to support an assumption that the two
players are sharing their hole cards with each other or communicating in
other ways. If one player had bet and the other had folded - well, that
would be a different story.

In summary, I am not concerned about unethical play here. ElkY and twin-
caracas may not be playing in the usual way, but their play does not pose
any threat to other players and therefore we have no grounds for action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have played with both of these guys in the past and don't have any reason to believe anything is going on. Both can be tricky, eratic and hard to read. Signs they could be varying their play, going on a hunch, busy playing four games and/or drunk.

[William]

Yeah, sure....
I have played with both these guys myself for a very long time and I have to agree that Elky has always been discreet. Twin on the other hand has always been involved in discussions about how to earn as much as possible against this ot that player (also often talking about games at other sites and asking one or another player to come and join the game). He's also often refered to phone conversations with other players at the table. The guy obviously believes that the Stars tables is his own personal office where he arranges meetings, phone calls and other stuff.

Sometimes when he's travelling and can't play, he even backs a friend and instructs him to tell that he is playing with Twin's money to let other players know that all agreements still run.

And again, he is not the only one.

[Pokeraddict]

I have to agree with William here (which I don't think I've ever done before). I just don't agree with him to this extreme. I would certainly not play with these guys. They have too much to gain by tag teaming everyone out pots if they play together as much as people say.

[autobet]

I have to say I haven't played much with them in over a year and a half, and I always multitable.

But you would think if they are cheating, they would be smart enough not to mention they talk or are talking on the phone. Maybe not...