25/50: AA / nut flush deep

[gergery]

I like your line, tho i probably lead for less on flop maybe 500. And the better/trickier your opponent the more I fold to his raise on the flop, since you only have 8 clean outs (hitting an ace could suck if he's got 45xx)

The problem with coming over the top of him is that you almost always get popped in when up vs. a set as huge dog, while he folds the weakest of his range (say KK w clubs). And while calling a reraise is unlikely for good player with these stack sizes, if he does call, then you'll have a tough time folding almost all the turn cards whereas he can decide after you act. Tho, If you think he might fold hands like KK22, QQ33, 47w clubs etc. then i like it more

But this is all stacksize related since at 1.5bI or less you just reraise it all in. Which is why I'd probably get up from the table -- playing superdeep with a good player on your left is not much fun.

-g

[theBruiser500]

"But this is all stacksize related since at 1.5bI or less you just reraise it all in. Which is why I'd probably get up from the table -- playing superdeep with a good player on your left is THE MOST fun."

[gergery]

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"But this is all stacksize related since at 1.5bI or less you just reraise it all in. Which is why I'd probably get up from the table -- playing superdeep with a good player on your right is THE MOST fun."

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fyp

[aba20]

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I don't think it's an open-and-shut case that he has 777 here at all.

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I agree he is not a nit, and could defenitly have other hands than 77xx but I am sure he has a good hand where at best I have 55-60% equity.

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So you have a good hand on the flop but he's taken control of the pot by being in position. I think he makes this move a lot with hands like 456 or A45, a lot of the time with flush draws, which are vulnerable but have a lot of potential to win, and is trying to force out hands that are splitting a few like 456x and obv higher flush draw + overpair which are slightly dominating.

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I think position is key in this hand but unfortunaly I am out of position, adn cannot change that.

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Against a set he is not doing too badly at all with such a hand. If you figure that he accords you the same respect you accord him, he will know that you will fold hands such as this with discipline. I should also assume that he is willing to fire a continuation bet on the turn despite not hitting. All-in-all, I honestly think you are never really that well behind, and you are quite often well ahead, and I think sometimes this should be a 3-bet/all-in on the flop.

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Here is where I really disagree with you. Getting 4 BI in the middle vs even a dry set is a major mistake here. I mean chatostrophic. With how deep we are I would want on average 45%+ equity at minimum to get it in the middle. If he has a dry set I only have 35% equity and my equity can be as bad as 23% against 7745s (I know this is seeing monsters but it is good to get a worst case senario). If I repot him on the flop he will fold hands that I am ahead of and maybe bottom set (which would be good). But if he shoves I am [censored]. I probably would have to call but getting it in there against what is sure to be a set is very bad.

[aba20]

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I think you should strongly consider putting in another raise on the flop. You have many of the hands in his range in bad shape (e.g., KK, QQ, even AA with 2 clubs, wrap with clubs), many of the hands that are either beating you or will be beating you by river will fold (2 pair hands, maybe naked wrap, maaaybe bottom or middle set).

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The problem with repotting the flop is he folds most hands I am slightly ahead of and shoves his top and middle sets.


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If he does have top set, you're usually only a 2-1 dog or 3-1 at absolute worst (if he has 7745 with 2 clubs). And while a set is def possible, I don't think it's his most likely holding here as an UTG raiser.

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Again getting 4 BI in the middle as a 2-1 or 3-1 dog is a very big misktake this deep. I agree if I had 2BI or maybe even 3 repotting the flop is fine but I think I am to deep to jam the flop.

[aba20]

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Yes but he wouldnt' have a nut flush draw and probably wouldnt' raise the flop and pot the turn without a nut flush draw to go with the oesd witht he two shorter stacks in the pot.

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A45 is not an oesd here. AK45 could be 2nd nut flush draw + 11-way straight draw, certainly good enough against two shortstacks and you OOP.

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I agree that he could raise the flop with a hand like this but I don't think he would pot the turn for fear of being check raised allin. Again I don't have that strong of a read on him just my gut.

[wazz]

I'm aching to defer to you because of who you are but:

You are not getting 4 BI in on the flop against a set by 3bet/all-in. You are getting a HELL of a lot of fold equity and bottom or middle set is surely always folding here if you think he'd play that sort of hand. You are getting money in the middle against a lot of draws who would assume they're up against a set and not doing too badly but are doing a hell of a lot worse to be up against your hand. If you are getting called by the one hand that has you in serious trouble you still have some outs. You are also getting called with a few hands that you have dominated. I also honestly think that he would not play a dry set this way (on the flop), unless he thought he was getting called by a lower set. He is pushing a strong but vulnerable hand like top pair + flush draw + small wrap or overpair + high flush draw + gutshot/oesd and you have fold equity so push back on the flop.

Aba I think the amount of depth you have here is distorting your view a little. Not saying scurred money but a very good player will prey on your not wanting to play for stacks here without a solid hand and push with a hand with lots of potential for improvement rather than a made hand. I don't know his turn patterns but I should imagine that for value he would bet less than he did on the turn, also. I really think villain had your number in this hand and played you accordingly.

[CrushinFelt]

Have we considered c/r that flop. That way if we want to raise we're putting in the second raise not te third.

The main problem I see with this is position. If a turn blanks do you fire again (probably), do you c/c (probably not). But I think it may be best to take control on this flop with a c/r.

[aba20]

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I'm aching to defer to you because of who you are but:

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I posted this for intersting discussion. I am just giving my opinions some people have agreed and some have disagreed. Its the debate which helps us learn. Just because I play higher stakes doesn't mean my analysis or thoughts on a hand are more correct or meaningful.

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You are not getting 4 BI in on the flop against a set by 3bet/all-in.

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I dont' follow. If I three bet the flop he will shove his 77xx and I will be getting 4BI in the middle against a set with 35% equity.

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You are getting a HELL of a lot of fold equity and bottom or middle set is surely always folding here if you think he'd play that sort of hand.

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I think the middle/bottom sets that he would play in that position would also have a straight draw on that flop ( ie 3345 type hands) and I don't think he is ever folding that.

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You are getting money in the middle against a lot of draws who would assume they're up against a set and not doing too badly but are doing a hell of a lot worse to be up against your hand. If you are getting called by the one hand that has you in serious trouble you still have some outs. You are also getting called with a few hands that you have dominated. I also honestly think that he would not play a dry set this way (on the flop), unless he thought he was getting called by a lower set. He is pushing a strong but vulnerable hand like top pair + flush draw + small wrap or overpair + high flush draw + gutshot/oesd and you have fold equity so push back on the flop.

Aba I think the amount of depth you have here is distorting your view a little. Not saying scurred money but a very good player will prey on your not wanting to play for stacks here without a solid hand and push with a hand with lots of potential for improvement rather than a made hand. I don't know his turn patterns but I should imagine that for value he would bet less than he did on the turn, also. I really think villain had your number in this hand and played you accordingly.

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This is very good argument. But one thing you are forgetting that will slow him down with his draws on the turn is that 77 is a huge party of my range so he can't fire the turn with impunity because I will be check raising all in alot. Also the money has no impact on my decision making in this hand, I am the furthest thing from scared money. I really don't think stinger was trying to bully me and I think a bluff (with air or a weak draw) was not even a part of his range.

Anywyas I think there has been some really good discussion about this hand and I honestly don't know how I feel about how I played it, hopefully stinger can chim in so we can have some results oriented thinking. My guess is he had a 7789 type of hand.

[aba20]

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Have we considered c/r that flop. That way if we want to raise we're putting in the second raise not te third.

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This is defenitly another viable way to play the hand.