10/20 at Bellagio - Page 4

Bill King · #31 08-23-2006, 05:47 PM

well seeing as how it is a relative unknown, and your hand is pretty vulnerable here or way ahead.. given no real good reads, do you lead out?

this is a tough one.

i'm thinking lead out for $1200.

JhTh isnt as strong as he thinks because we hold 2 of his straight outs, but KQ is also cause for concern.. in which i think a flop push or lead out and fold to a raise, or c/c and hope a safe turn card comes (which is the play i dont really like.)

Bill King · #32 08-23-2006, 05:51 PM

thats actually what i thought when i went over the hand a 2nd time.

i think calling and hoping for a safe turn card is real sloppy and still leaves you in the clouds accept for leaving a drawing hand in murky water.

i also think that we're probably going to be more inclined to pay off on the turn because the pot is getting pretty large at this point.

i do agree with jkrantz that the read is real important here however.

he easily could be getting out of line with AK

duck_butter · #33 08-23-2006, 05:56 PM

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in which i think a flop push or lead out and fold to a raise, or c/c and hope a safe turn card comes (which is the play i dont really like.)

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You are the first to address the possibility of a flop push. Its not something I would normally do. Although a respectable regular online player did this to me twice recently at 10/20 NL with AA after I flopped 2 pair and a set and raised his flop bets.

duck_butter · #34 08-23-2006, 06:00 PM

Unfortunately I had no reads on this hand. He wasn't giving me anything. He was young, listening to Ipod, sat down with a large stack, and had only been at my table 30 minutes and hadn't shown down a hand.

My vibe was that he wasn't a fish, and could be tricky/aggresive, but that's it.

Bill King · #35 08-23-2006, 06:04 PM

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in which i think a flop push or lead out and fold to a raise, or c/c and hope a safe turn card comes (which is the play i dont really like.)

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You are the first to address the possibility of a flop push. Its not something I would normally do. Although a respectable regular online player did this to me twice recently at 10/20 NL with AA after I flopped 2 pair and a set and raised his flop bets.

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well everybody seems to be concerned with KQ, but i doubt we're getting away from going broke against KQ when an offsuit 2 hits the turn and he bets out 1/2-2/3 our stack.. folding is so weak there. Which is why I think it is correct to push against hands like J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], AK etc type hands that will either call, fold (you may lose a lot of value, but then again it may make someone make a call they normally wouldnt if you push on the flop).

but if you just call the flop and then a Q, K, J, 10, or even an A rolls off, or any heart, now we're really puting our hand at a huge risk and leaning towards folding.. when the flop push looks a lot better. Opponents may be willing to call a flop push with a wider range of hands rather than on the turn, when hes only going to call with a better hand.

its a precarious spot, but if you had to play this hand over 1,000 times i probably feel better 3-betting the flop.

TheWorstPlayer · #36 08-23-2006, 06:29 PM

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if i want to create a large pot, which i think is a mistake here (or 3-betting the flop is your best bet), i would make my turn move based on whether or not i think he will bet if i check (if he will check behind more often than he bets, i would bet out).

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I agree with jk on this point. If you plan to bet the turn and create a big pot, why not just reraise the flop?

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Re-raising the flop gives him a chance to push with big made hands and big draws alike, which we can't be happy about. Whereas by waiting for the turn, a heart might come and save us from a big made hand or we may be able to put more money into the pot with a lot more equity against a big draw on a blank turn than on the flop. Basically he can't make a big mistake on the flop, but we can, whereas he can make a big mistake on a blank turn if we play correctly.

aba20 · #37 08-23-2006, 06:30 PM

Start by calling, give me a turn card and we can continue from there.

luckychewy · #38 08-23-2006, 06:34 PM

how if pf not being discussed? i would think in most 10 handed games limping is the most +ev play here. initial flop bet is so small, i'd rather bet full pot or check. now that you put yourself in this spot i'd probably just call and re-evaluate. you can also fold now if you feel he's strong.

duck_butter · #39 08-23-2006, 06:36 PM

Ok, I called. The turn was Td.

Pot - $1610
My stack - $2300
Opponent - Covers

duck_butter · #40 08-23-2006, 06:39 PM

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how if pf not being discussed? i would think in most 10 handed games limping is the most +ev play here.

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I limp or raise 50/50 UTG with AA, KK. I see no point in always playing them the same way. A lot of good players expect you to limp with AA/KK UTG so when you open with them, they put you on other hands.