PLO 2k weird spot

[flawless_victory]

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Your preflop play turns your cards faceup, no?

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if this was az joke it was really funny.

yo etizzle, this hand is brutal. i would call.

[mosta]

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I realise the bare KK QQ is bad, but I could see it alot in a hand like KQQJ or KKJT suited. I havent played for a bit and never more than 400pl but I played enough.

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cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 4s Ac Jh 296131 59.23 203869 40.77 0 0.00 0.592
6c 7d 5d 4h 203869 40.77 296131 59.23 0 0.00 0.408

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 4s Ac Jh 265716 53.14 234284 46.86 0 0.00 0.531
8c 6c 7d 5d 234284 46.86 265716 53.14 0 0.00 0.469

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 4s Ac Jh 283250 56.65 216750 43.35 0 0.00 0.567
6c 7d 5d 8h 216750 43.35 283250 56.65 0 0.00 0.433

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 4s Ac Jh 278869 55.77 221131 44.23 0 0.00 0.558
8c 6c 8d 7d 221131 44.23 278869 55.77 0 0.00 0.442

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 4s Ac Jh 316042 63.21 182979 36.60 979 0.20 0.633
Jc Qd Td 9h 182979 36.60 316042 63.21 979 0.20 0.367

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 4s Ac Jh 315678 63.14 183596 36.72 726 0.15 0.632
Jc Qd Td Kh 183596 36.72 315678 63.14 726 0.15 0.368

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 4s Ac Jh 334889 66.98 164498 32.90 613 0.12 0.670
Jc Kd Qd Kh 164498 32.90 334889 66.98 613 0.12 0.330

[pete fabrizio]

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No reads, except UTG is on both tables and has a pretty big stack (~11kish) on the table this hand was played on. (this is on party btw) Stacks are 4200 approx for me and CO, 11k for UTG, and 2k for sb.


on to the hand:

UTG (main villain) pots it to 70, I call with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], CO makes it 300 to go, sb coldcalls, UTG calls, I raise to 1500, EVERYONE calls.

flop ($6000) is 662r

sb bets out 500 all-inn, UTG raises to 3k (putting me and CO all in, we both have about 2500 left)

wtf?

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this is a hand where overthinking it will get you in trouble. it takes a massive parlay for you to win this pot. fold.

[BluffTHIS!]

TWP: Thank you for your kind words.

The rest of you: If you want to play PLO then I suggest reading old threads and the archives of the Omaha High forum. Even though a lot of lower/medium stakes PLO players who post in the Omaha High forum aren't good players yet, or maybe only modest winners, they know more about this common situation simply because of reading and posting there and from the experience of playing thousands of hands.

PLO can be a very profitable game and is well worth learning, though it easily can have 2-3x the variance of FR or 6-max NLHE. And your AA hands should be a big profit center, but only if you play them right, and that doesn't include telegraphing 1/2 your hand and having a significant amount of money left to bet.

As far as posting higher stakes PLO hands here, you can do what you want. It is true that besides myself, there are only a couple regular posters in the Omaha High who play 5/10 and up PLO regularly, and the games do play different than the lower ones. But that is still where you are more likely to get the best advice. And as I said, the previous PLO threads contain many similar situations to the ones you will encounter, although unfortunately the search engine has always not rendered good PLO results partly due to the name of the forum being changed a couple times.

And recognize clearly that all your NL knowledge and experience means virtually nothing in PLO, though of course your general theoretical poker knowledge (TOP stuff) should.


In the hand in question here are the relevant factors:

1) It was a mistake to get 1/3 of your stack in when you aren't going to be left headsup against a shorter stack who is allin or nearly so. In fact as I have said in the PLO forums repeatedly, it is also correct to fold your worst AA hands pre (this one is much better though) facing a lot of action, and in fact one of David's articles in the magazine this month makes a similar comment about such a situation.

2) A lot of the time here someone else is going to have the other AA and you won't even have 2 outs if you are behind on the flop.

3) Shorty if he isn't the one with the other AA has you beat because he has zero FE and will only be betting an overpair or a straight draw a smaller portion of the time.

4) UTG, whether he is a LAG or a tricky TAG likely has you beat with a 6, but also could clearly recognize the situation with your hand and be trying to move you out and have the dead money giving him better odds if he is currently beat by shorty.

5) Despite the fact that the flop *should* often be good as a low board pair giving you aces up means someone else with the other flop pair is already counterfeited in advance and can't beat you by making only 2 pair, such a board pair is never good news in PLO when you don't have that card, especially when there has been a bet and a raise.

6) Even if UTG is being tricky as noted above, you still have to beat 2 players at least and still don't know if the CO likes that flop. Thus most of the time you don't figure to win this pot. If the action had gone check, UTG pushed and there was no one left behind you, then I might call for the reason that UTG would often be trying to move you off a winner. But that is a tough call even headsup and is a large part of the reason you don't get so much of your stack in pre (you want to get much less or much more in pre).

7) Therefore you usually aren't going to win enough of the time in this specific multiway situation on a paired board to be able to call and you should FOLD.


Now all of you who previously advocated calling can say that you "disagree", and in fact maybe OP got lucky and won this pot though I doubt it. But you do not have any good theoretical, experiential or read-based reasons for such disagreement.


Edited to add: Keep this salient fact in mind in PLO - in headsup preflop allin situations, the best AA hand never is going to be more than a 2-1 favorite over most hands not containing an A, and the worst AA hand will only be a small favorite over something like T987ds, and in mutiway preflop allin situations such bad AA hands will be an equity dog.

[lapoker17]

sweet post bt.

[RoundTower]

I think I would fold, people occasionally push KK etc here, but not often enough. But they shove 6xxx all the time because the pot is already big. Against some guys you just have to call but I don't think this is the case against an unknown at Party 2k. Preflop is fine, you have nearly half your stack in there.

As regards PLO in this forum I don't really care, I mostly post in PLO but I agree you get a lot of crap responses there. If this is the best way to generate more Omaha discussion that's great.

[TheWorstPlayer]

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TWP: Thank you for your kind words.

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No worries! Thanks for backing me up with a seriously quality post. However, the one thing you didn't mention was how you would have played this hand preflop...

[BluffTHIS!]

Since it seemed unlikely that hero could both get it headsup and also not get a much larger portion of his stack in pre versus a big stack, I would have just smootcalled the 2nd raise and seen a flop. And I would have either raised myself if no one else had (because I raise with a lot of other hands as well) or just limped a lot of the time as OP did.

[snagglepuss]

this hand is goofy because i doubt OP was expecting everyone to call the 3rd pot raise. he was obv trying to get it hu against cutoff with all the dead money out there and possibly a small edge if he has dumb aces.

you are usually dunleavy when utg ships it, but it sucks because the pot has a billion dollars in it already and people are terrible.

backdoor a wheel or flush baby!

[NfldPwns]

unlikely to put anyone else on aa since they just called a $1500 raise pf, why wouldn't they shove pf and isolate the pot?