What do other pros think about Bonds?

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]

Without looking it up:
Alex Sanchez Tampa Bay, Ryan Franklin (P) Seattle, Ricardo Rincon (P) Minnessota, Rafael Palmeiro, Sosa, Jason Giambi, Ken Caminiti, Jose Canseco, Ozzie Canseco, Mark McGwire, Bret Boone, and several of the players proven to have tested positive are sort of no-name minor leaguers. Many are hispanic. Not white.

[/ QUOTE ]

You correctly identified 3 of the 12.

And we aren't talking minor leaguers here, 12 MAJOR LEAGUE ballplayers. If you want to talk Minor Leaguers as well, there have been an additional 80+ positive tests and suspensions in the last year, but for the sake of discussion, we'll stick to MLB.

[MuresanForMVP]

"Just so you know, I personally think it is more about the RECORD, than it is about RACE. Race is an agitating factor, make no mistake, but it is hardly the central issue. It isn't about steroids either, oddly enough.

It is totally, unequivocally about a guy a lot of people don't like getting close to breaking a record they don't want him to have. For some steroids is their excuse, and for others race is their motivation."

I agree wholeheartedly, but I think it should be said that the fact that he's almost assuredly taken steroids at some point in his career only adds to the hatred of him. I no longer have much respect for palmeiro, sosa,mcgwire,etc. It just so happens that Barry is light years ahead of them in terms of being an A-hole

[junglewarfare]

[ QUOTE ]

HGH was not a steroid nor a banned substance, by the MLB definition. It may be a technicality to some, but their are explicit steroids outlawed by name in the CBA and Baseball's policy, and those not explicitly named are inherently allowable.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's not necessarily true. Do you think steroids have been synthesized but not discovered by anti doping officials are allowable as well? They aren't outlawed by name.

Also, I don't think Giambi ever actually tested positive for steroids in MLB's testing program (not that I don't think he didn't use them, of course he did).

[danvh]

<conspiracy theory> Right now Im not sure if its even about the record. I think its more MLB and the owners needing a bad guy.

Baseball has defended players in far worse circumstances and the union is notorious for blindly defending players. However it seems like from actions like MLB continually leeking things like not authenticating balls they want to keep Barry in bad guy role as long as possible.

Because once he leaves and if steroids are still a big thing, baseball and the owners are going to be asked why they turned a blind eye. And instead of investigations by their friends into what Bonds did and when, its going to be investigations on what Selig and the owners knew and when. </conspiracy theory>

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]
Just look at the numbers, he hit about half of his career totals of homeruns from the years 2000-2004, when he was approaching 40 years old.


[/ QUOTE ]

Bonds was 35-39 during those years. And it wasn't "half" his career totals, it was about 36%. For what it's worth, Hank Aaron hit 33% of his total after age 35.

36% vs 33%, not too convincing. But there is MORE, continue on ->

Hanks career high was at age 37. Bonds at age 36.

Not exactly "never before seen." Nor is it proof of illegal substance, unless of course, you are saying Hank was a juicer as well.

In fact, a detailed stastitical analysis of Hank, Barry, and admitted users Canseco and Caminiti would reveal some surprising results, with Barry and Hank being similar, and the admitted steroid users the complete polar opposite.

Let's examine:

<u>Henry Aaron</u>
ages 30-34: 33 HR's per year
ages 35-39: 41 HR's per year

25% increase.
Career High: Age 37.

<u>Barry Bonds</u>
ages 30-34: 37 HR's per year
ages 35-39: 51 HR's per year

40% increase.
Career High: Age 36

And for reference, let's look at admitted steroid users comparative numbers, and see how they fared after age 35:

<u>Ken Caminiti</u>
ages 30-34: 24 HRs per year
ages 35-38: 18 HRs per year

25% decrease.
Career High: Age 33 !!

<u>Jose Canseco</u>
ages 30-34: 31 HRs per year
ages 35-36: 13 HRs per year

58% decrease.
Career High: Age 33 !!!


Seems when it comes to this theory of power production going up after age 35 in relation to steroids, Bonds has alot more in common with Henry Aaron, and way less than the polar opposite in admitted steroid users Caminiti and Canseco, who hit their career highs BEFORE age 35, and whose production dropped SIGNIFICANTLY after 35.

Several known steroid users production DECREASED dramatically between 35-39 compared to 30-34.

Henry Aaron and Barry Bonds INCREASED. The exact opposite effect that occurred with KNOWN steroid users.

So much for that theory being "proof of juice", eh?


[ QUOTE ]

That does NOT happen. It just doesn't. Look at his numbers and honestly try and tell me that you don't think something illegal was going on,I dare you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scroll up, chief. Scroll up.

[prohornblower]

[ QUOTE ]

And for reference, let's look at admitted steroid users comparative numbers, and see how they fared after age 35:

<u>Ken Caminiti</u>
ages 30-34: 24 HRs per year
ages 35-38: 18 HRs per year

25% decrease.
Career High: Age 33 !!

<u>Jose Canseco</u>
ages 30-34: 31 HRs per year
ages 35-36: 13 HRs per year

58% decrease.
Career High: Age 33 !!!


[/ QUOTE ]

This stuff right here means nothing.

Ever hear of injuries? And Jose was on roids when he was 30...so...wtf? As was Caminitti I believe.

[MuresanForMVP]

that's some impressive analysis, "chief" but forgive me if I don't buy it. I said "approaching" 40,not 40 and I certainly think that 36-40="approaching 40", but no matter. You said that Aaron peaked at 47 HR's at 37 years of age. True, but throughout his career he had 7 seasons of 40+ out of the 23 seasons he played...47 as compared to the other times he hit 44 or 45 is not that big of a deal. On the other hand, Bonds' highest total before 2000 was 46 HR's when he was 28, generally considered the "peak" of a player's career. He had a season of 42 and 40 after that, but those were his three highest HR totals of his career before 2000. Then all of a sudden he jacks 49, and the following year hits 73?!? are you kidding me? then you show me the numbers of ken caminiti and canseco and try to say that's indicative of "known steroid users"? please. Why not do the totals for others suspected of juicing like sosa and mcgwire? Bonds came out of nowhere to hit 73 home runs in one season after never approaching that. show me all the [censored] numbers you want, but if you don't think something's wrong with that then you're a lost cause.

[Athos]

"Bonds was 35-39 during those years. And it wasn't "half" his career totals, it was about 36%. For what it's worth, Hank Aaron hit 33% of his total after age 35."

We're also talking 5 seasons for Bonds vs 7 for Aaron (30.4% of his career).

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]
This stuff right here means nothing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Or Does it? When someone says you cannot increase your homerun production after age 35 without the aid of juice, I submit to you Hank Aaron himself as proof it has happened before without the aid of performing enhancing substances.

And with the limited number of admitted steroid users whose careers have run their course, we see the exact opposite effect that we see with Bonds/Aaron....dramatic DECREASES.

Bonds career closely parallels Hanks in this regard, and differs dramatically from the results seen with known steroid users.

Is it proof positive Bonds was clean? Of course not, that isn't what I am saying. All I am saying is that it equally is NOT proof positive that he juiced either.

It is simply a counterpoint ot the assertion that it couldn't be done without steroids, when in fact it has been and it can be done.

[Athos]

Aaron was also aided in playing his later years in ATL Fulton County stadium vs Bonds playing in prolly THE toughest park to hit home runs.