c-bet article...finally online

[AMT]

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Free card:

"you have AKd. Let’s say you have raised in MP and both blinds called you. The flop comes QT5 with one diamond and now they both check to you. In a situation like this I will most often check, because it’s quite unpleasant to get check raised."

In Theory of Poker (which i still have not finished completely [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] ), Sklansky says "the more ways you have of improving to become the best hand, the more reason you have to bet."

Isn't taking a free card contradictory to this since you have lots of outs (2 overcards, gut draw, and a backdoor draw)?

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It is also stated somewhere, possibly by Sklansky that you should take the freecard if you hate to get raised.


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this is the main concern. youre still behind anyone with a made hand, but you want to see the next 2 cards, and your decision isnt easy if someone raises your bet bc of the moderate, but not clear cut strength of your hand. make it easier to take a free card, cause if you face a lot of heat your hand still isnt stong enough to take it all the way.

[curtains]

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Free card:

"you have AKd. Let’s say you have raised in MP and both blinds called you. The flop comes QT5 with one diamond and now they both check to you. In a situation like this I will most often check, because it’s quite unpleasant to get check raised."

In Theory of Poker (which i still have not finished completely [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] ), Sklansky says "the more ways you have of improving to become the best hand, the more reason you have to bet."

Isn't taking a free card contradictory to this since you have lots of outs (2 overcards, gut draw, and a backdoor draw)?

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Where exactly does it say that and what is the specific context? Betting in such spots is fine, I'm sure plenty of very good players do so. I just feel more comfortable checking. Sometimes you can bet the turn, sometimes you'll make the best hand on the turn, sometimes everyone will check again. They don't call me weak/tight for nothing.

[Newt_Buggs]

[ QUOTE ]
Free card:

"you have AKd. Let’s say you have raised in MP and both blinds called you. The flop comes QT5 with one diamond and now they both check to you. In a situation like this I will most often check, because it’s quite unpleasant to get check raised."

In Theory of Poker (which i still have not finished completely [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] ), Sklansky says "the more ways you have of improving to become the best hand, the more reason you have to bet."

Isn't taking a free card contradictory to this since you have lots of outs (2 overcards, gut draw, and a backdoor draw)?

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This might have been a reference to limit where a chechraise will only make you call an extra small bet.

[oyvindgee]

Yeah, TOP is, as most of Sklansky's works, written mainly for limit. The quote however, isn't out of context. But one must remember that this is just one more thing on the betting side of the scale along with possibility of opponents folding, deception and such. On the other side we find the danger of a check raise and our ability to actually take the free card. In this situation the latter side is the heaviest IMO.

[AA Suited]

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In this situation the latter side is the heaviest IMO.

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what do you mean by the heaviest?

[oyvindgee]

The heaviest side of the scale - The better option.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
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Free card:

"you have AKd. Let’s say you have raised in MP and both blinds called you. The flop comes QT5 with one diamond and now they both check to you. In a situation like this I will most often check, because it’s quite unpleasant to get check raised."

In Theory of Poker (which i still have not finished completely [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] ), Sklansky says "the more ways you have of improving to become the best hand, the more reason you have to bet."

Isn't taking a free card contradictory to this since you have lots of outs (2 overcards, gut draw, and a backdoor draw)?

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Where exactly does it say that and what is the specific context? Betting in such spots is fine, I'm sure plenty of very good players do so. I just feel more comfortable checking. Sometimes you can bet the turn, sometimes you'll make the best hand on the turn, sometimes everyone will check again. They don't call me weak/tight for nothing.

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Curtains, could you answer my questions please?

Thank you, sir. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[curtains]

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great article. I think c-betting has been causing me to waste a lot of chips. I am surprised that you would c-bet with the ace on board. You said it would scare people off, but I always felt that many villains will play any ace, so an ace on the flop was likely to have hit someone... I had the same thoughts on K, and Q flops too, but less dangerous than an ace flop.

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I don't want to speak for Curtains, but I'm pretty sure that this is when there is only one opponent. When you have KQ or JJ vs. two callers, and A appears, I would bet that Curtains is not c-betting there.

Curtains, couple of questions:

1. Betting the TT3 board. This kind of flop worries me, because (a) mid pairs call you very often and (b) it's the kind of flop that people like to bluff at you. Why do you think it's so good to bet?

2. Could you expand more on c-betting out of position? I think this should be the one of the most important factors in your list, but I don't see it at all. It's probably not as critical as # of opponents, but I think it's equal to flop texture.

3. What about c-betting when your stack is short? Eg, blinds 100/200, A6o from the button. You raise to 500 and get called by the BB. Flop comes Q94, JT2, or K88. Something like that. Now, the pot is 1100, your stack is 1900. Any bet either commits you or cripples you if you lose the hand. Are you more or less likely to check behind here? I'm more likely.

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Sorry didn't see them.

Q1 - Of course Im hoping that they dont have a midpair, and if they do I will win about 25% assuming they don't checkraise or bet out on the turn. In general I don't think of flops that people are likely to bluff. I think more in terms of flops that people are likely to have hit. If you are scared of flops that people will bluff a lot and scared of flops that are coordinated/likely to have been hit by your opponent, it just seems like you end up scared of everything. If someone wants to bluff me with nothing here, congratulations, they deserve the pot. And in some situations when I get a good feeling, I can 3 bet.


2. I c-bet a lot less out of position. However against common opponents I also check raise a bit more here, to mask those times where I am checking the flop. One advantage of c-betting is that you often get to see the river when you are in position. This advantage often goes out the window when you are OOP.

3. Um....gee depends on the situation, the opponents etc. I don't know whether I'd play the same PF also....in SnGs I'd sometimes just fold A6o there on the button, depending on my opponents. I dunno somehow I feel like people ask tough questions like this, yet when I play they never seem to come up? Maybe I play in a style that avoids them? Anyway I'd be more likely to check behind on the Q94, JT2 flop, and more likely to bet the K88.

[Bigwig]

Thanks, good answers. To clarify, in question #3, you would be more likely to check behind in this situation, correct?

Also, I'm finding that it's rarely correct to ever c-bet into a big stack when OOP. Do you agree? Many of these guys fall into the super loose category (which is why they often have a big stack early or bust), so they'll make calls with 2nd pair, weak draws, etc, making it very tough for you. They'll also come over the top (often with the annoying mini-raise) with all kinds of junk. I've been running into this spot in MTTs a lot, and I'll often just shut it down, waiting to actually have a hand to tangle with them. (I realize that much of this paragraph is common sense tournament poker, but just want your thoughts)

[cocarondelle]

Speaking about those loose large stacks, and when you re out of position, I agree very much with avoiding the c-bet;they even sometimes call on almost nothing just to see if you fire again on the turn;

regarding other situations relating to the "semi bluff" c-bets that you discussed with Curtains, when in position, I will be much more inclined to bet with very few outs (like a gutshot), than with a big draw(when facing one or 2 opponents).I know it s old hat and commonly accepted, just wanted to give a bump..

thanks for the article btw