fold JJ on raggy flop too weak?

[Irish Mafia]

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You do realize that "inducing a shove" implies he has me crushed, right?

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nonono

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so 88, is leading HOPING to get shoved on just "assuming" i have AK for no reason whatsoever, and w/ absolutely no information whatsoever.

[jfish]

yep

[Jamougha]

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You do realize that "inducing a shove" implies he has me crushed, right?

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nonono

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so 88, is leading HOPING to get shoved on just "assuming" i have AK for no reason whatsoever, and w/ absolutely no information whatsoever.

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I would do this with 88-TT quite often, not necessarily on this board.

[Irish Mafia]

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He may be firing into you for reasons already mentioned, he's looking to induce a bluff/shove from your missed AK/AQ etc. Or, he has previous info on you that suggests he can fold out hands like marginal overpairs. If thats the case, his range includes plenty of air and certainly includes 88 thru TT.

You are also "beating" heart draws, although almost all of these will consist of AhKh/AhQh or combo draws.

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You do realize that "inducing a shove" implies he has me crushed, right? And how often can you say he has pure air here - taking into the fact that he knows i'm very aggro? At this point you are almost conceding that this is NOT an easy push - as you concede that i'm only beating air or 88-TT (and those pairs seem HIGHLY unlikely).

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fine Irish, your line is standard. nice fold.

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I have difficulty understanding the extreme sarcasm, and it really makes me not want to bother posting hands at all. I posted b/c i was lost, and am stating my thought processes for purposes of discussion. Granted he could be bluff-stabbing w/ air...or 88, but I really thought he WANTED me to push. and I think its pretty damn close w/ JJ, as i'm behind any combo draw or any bigger pair. But maybe i'm way off base - it was just my read at the time. Obviously a lot of people vehemently disagree.

[Irish Mafia]

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yep

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why? (i'm being serious). He has to give me some semblance of credit for a bigger pair sometimes - it seems like suicide... but maybe CO v. btn its not terrible, i just don't think i'd ever use this move. You are basically praying that he has AK or AQ (or JJ apparently, heh). AND AK doesn't have terrible equity on that board either - just seems like a very odd "inducer". Do other people use this move?

[Teh1337zor]

what % of his range do you think are sets?

[obiedman]

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what % of his range do you think are sets?

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i'm interested in this, and also how anybody's thoughts change if the board is something like 763hh or 873hh, something like that

[Triumph36]

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yep

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why? (i'm being serious). He has to give me some semblance of credit for a bigger pair sometimes - it seems like suicide... but maybe CO v. btn its not terrible, i just don't think i'd ever use this move. You are basically praying that he has AK or AQ (or JJ apparently, heh). AND AK doesn't have terrible equity on that board either - just seems like a very odd "inducer". Do other people use this move?

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i've seen it a lot with weakish hands that can call bluff-shoves but cannot shove over bluffs without totally spewing all over the place. i think it's an awful play on this board with 88, but i wouldn't be surprised if it was that hand.

btw i think like 10% of his range are sets, maaaybe.

[jlocdog]

Mafia,

Are you taking the results of this hand to justify your points?

AA/KK seem unlikely given line. Thus you lose to a set and QQ and even less likely to AA/KK. You beat pretty much every other reasonable hand and your range is still fairly wide given that all you have done is 3bet preflop. Jam and take a note if he shows up with better then you here. End of story.

[obiedman]

i have been swayed. i'm in the shove camp now because he's got a smaller overpair a lot.