Marriage without children?....And divorce

[Lottery Larry]

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You have to throw an expensive event which will leave you in debt for years unless you already have a sweet gig.

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Says who? YOU don't make your own decisions?

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No matter how sure you are that you love eachother there's still a very good chance that divorce will happen and marriage will screw you out of a lot of money.

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So, because something "bad" might happen, you won't do something you might think is "good"

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I'd actually like to continue having sex, which the majority of my friends have said has gone down the drain after marriage.

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Then it sounds as if their relationship needs work, right? How does marriage have anything to do with that?

What we really need is a comparison of sex in marriage vs. sex in long-term relationships... for older people (as in, above 25+). Otherwise, you're probably talking apples/oranges

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People shouldn't have to give reasons why they shouldn't get married, it's the other way around.

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Why? Because marriage is not something you're supposed to "want" to do? You have to be forced to do it?

[Klompy]

LL,

I just wrote a really long post arguing against all of your points, but decided it's worthless as this is simply an argument over the importance of commitment. Small sample size I know, but I've watched marriage do more harm then good in my friends. This isn't to say that marriage isn't really good for the people that it doesn't do harm though.

[Lottery Larry]

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I just wrote a really long post arguing against all of your points, but decided it's worthless as this is simply an argument over the importance of commitment.

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Damn- too bad, I would have liked to see that. It may or may not be limited to your stated argument.

In the case of relationships with kids, there's probably a good argument that making relationships harder to dissolve makes sense, and that may be the primary reason to make the commitment official, but now we can't have that debate [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Blarg]

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You have to throw an expensive event which will leave you in debt for years unless you already have a sweet gig.

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Says who? YOU don't make your own decisions?


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My folks have been married for over 30 years and they just got it done in front of a judge in less than half an hour. There was no rush, they could afford better. It just seemed like a better idea to keep it easy and modest. If people can easily afford a fancy wedding, that's one thing, but it looks like they've become the norm rather than the exception. Super bad societal trend that is very financially damaging.

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No matter how sure you are that you love eachother there's still a very good chance that divorce will happen and marriage will screw you out of a lot of money.

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So, because something "bad" might happen, you won't do something you might think is "good"


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That's how life is done. People make choices. Your objection is weird. If jumping off a bridge was fun, just because something "bad" might happen, you wouldn't do something "fun"?


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I'd actually like to continue having sex, which the majority of my friends have said has gone down the drain after marriage.

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Then it sounds as if their relationship needs work, right? How does marriage have anything to do with that?


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Human nature. Agreed that a relationship might need work, but we might as well admit we are working against the current here. A lot about marriage is like that, but this is probably one of those things that is the most clearly biological. Even people who love each other and get along great can get tired of each other after a while. It doesn't have to be intentional or the result of ill will.

Also, having kids is a pretty severe difference in a relationship. Roles change, as well as bodies. Men sometimes have a harder time wanting to screw a "mommy" than a wife, because the roles are so different, and one of them is asexual at the very best. Women sometimes get into the role of mommy much more than they ever were into the role of wife, and some stay that way for the rest of the relationship. There are a lot of psychological adjustments both partners have to go through. And there's not as much time or freedom to keep things romantic anymore, or even sleep to refresh yourself. It's pretty natural that a couple's sex life could be derailed for quite a while after childbirth and have a hard time coming back to what they used to consider normal.


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What we really need is a comparison of sex in marriage vs. sex in long-term relationships... for older people (as in, above 25+). Otherwise, you're probably talking apples/oranges

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People shouldn't have to give reasons why they shouldn't get married, it's the other way around.

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Why? Because marriage is not something you're supposed to "want" to do? You have to be forced to do it?

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No, you are not being fair at all with some of your responses, and I think if you stepped back and looked at them again, you wouldn't respond like that.

It's because marriage is, of course, a huge commitment, even one intended to be lifelong, and can affect not just the parties but can result in children who can also be affected by how smart a decision it was between two particular people to undertake marriage. You should always have very well-considered reasons to do something of anything near that kind of importance.

[Lottery Larry]

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You have to throw an expensive event which will leave you in debt for years unless you already have a sweet gig.

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Says who? YOU don't make your own decisions?


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My folks have been married for over 30 years and they just got it done in front of a judge in less than half an hour. There was no rush, they could afford better. It just seemed like a better idea to keep it easy and modest. If people can easily afford a fancy wedding, that's one thing, but it looks like they've become the norm rather than the exception. Super bad societal trend that is very financially damaging.

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Definately agree. Some might say that planning/managing the wedding and its afteraffects might be a good early test for how a marriage might be expected to succeed, no?



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I'd actually like to continue having sex, which the majority of my friends have said has gone down the drain after marriage.

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Then it sounds as if their relationship needs work, right? How does marriage have anything to do with that?

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Human nature. Agreed that a relationship might need work, but we might as well admit we are working against the current here. A lot about marriage is like that, but this is probably one of those things that is the most clearly biological. Even people who love each other and get along great can get tired of each other after a while. It doesn't have to be intentional or the result of ill will.

Also, having kids is a pretty severe difference in a relationship. Roles change, as well as bodies. Men sometimes have a harder time wanting to screw a "mommy" than a wife, because the roles are so different, and one of them is asexual at the very best. Women sometimes get into the role of mommy much more than they ever were into the role of wife, and some stay that way for the rest of the relationship. There are a lot of psychological adjustments both partners have to go through. And there's not as much time or freedom to keep things romantic anymore, or even sleep to refresh yourself. It's pretty natural that a couple's sex life could be derailed for quite a while after childbirth and have a hard time coming back to what they used to consider normal.

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Not sure if you were making a counter argument or just a statement here.


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What we really need is a comparison of sex in marriage vs. sex in long-term relationships... for older people (as in, above 25+). Otherwise, you're probably talking apples/oranges

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People shouldn't have to give reasons why they shouldn't get married, it's the other way around.

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Why? Because marriage is not something you're supposed to "want" to do? You have to be forced to do it?

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No, you are not being fair at all with some of your responses, and I think if you stepped back and looked at them again, you wouldn't respond like that.

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One, who gives a [censored] about "fair" when asking a question? Two, I intentionally phrased it that way, given the absolute nature of the "give reasons to be married" line quoted.
I'm certainly not arguing that marriage is perfect, nor that one extreme or the other is correct or realistic. I just thought the point needed to be countered a bit



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It's because marriage is, of course, a huge commitment, even one intended to be lifelong, and can affect not just the parties but can result in children who can also be affected by how smart a decision it was between two particular people to undertake marriage. You should always have very well-considered reasons to do something of anything near that kind of importance.

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Of course I agree here. My questions are:

1) Doesn't a long-term relationship that is NOT going to be turned into a marriage take the same careful thought (maybe even more so)?

2) There seems to be an idea the marriage is the same thing as a prison sentence, one that no man would enter into voluntarily. My rejoining question would be "If you are involved with someone, more than casually, and you would never get married, shouldn't you be required to give reasons why?"

As reasons such as "I might get divorced" or "It might cost me money" are so pathetic as to be rejected outright, imo.

Complicating this is the whole "kids without marriage" fact that, with certain caveats, men in general have a much easier time washing their hands of a relationship and their kids than women do.

Primarily, until we legally require men to be a parent, rather than a sperm and money donor, for a kid's developmental period, I'm less willing to listen to men whine about marriage being a raw deal.

[RoundGuy]

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marriage - a life long commitment to another person

Besides tax and legal stuff, is there any reason to get married if you aren't going to have the children?

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I am firmly in the "no" camp. I see absolutely no reason to be married w/o children.

We had this discussion awhile back in different thread, and Blarg and one or two others blasted me when I made the following obvservations:

*The ultimate purpose of marriage is to start a family
*Marriage without kids offers nothing more than remaining single
*If my wife had told me before being married that she didn't want kids -- we would not be married
*If either of us, after marriage, had been shown to be infertile, it woud be 3:1 against that we would still be married (needs much more elaboration)
*If the unimaginable, unthinkable tragedy happened and my two teenage children died tomorrow -- it would be 50/50 that we would be together 10 years from now (needs much more elaboration)
*I adore my wife
*I did not "have" to get married
*I am a realist

I have been married 23 years.

I would be interested to see if Blarg and others still have issue with any of my points.

[nsdjoe]

FWIW my parents divorced when I was 4, and the concept of marriage terrifies me (I'm now 25).

I feel I'm normal in other respects, however.

[Fast Food Knight]

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FWIW my parents divorced when I was 4, and the concept of marriage terrifies me (I'm now 25).

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I feel I'm normal in other respects, however.

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I don't know... I feel like that IS normal. Does anyone disagree?

[nsdjoe]

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I don't know... I feel like that IS normal. Does anyone disagree?

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With the rate friends and colleagues are getting married... it's either not normal, or people are getting married whilst being terrified.

[Blarg]

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FWIW my parents divorced when I was 4, and the concept of marriage terrifies me (I'm now 25).

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I feel I'm normal in other respects, however.

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I don't know... I feel like that IS normal. Does anyone disagree?

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Agreed. Being a little scared of a gigantic life change that you actually HOPE is going to be permanent seems healthy enough to me, and even helpful in keeping your arse out of fires.