Came Across an Interesting Book...

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
There has always been a big to-do about whether or not Jesus should be considered divine (obviously, since this is the only real difference between Christianity and Judaism). There was one gospel -I forget which one- that makes no mention of a virgin birth, etc.

There are also many different account of the ressurection, with one having an 8 story tall Jesus coming back from the dead.

There's no doubt about it... Jesus was and continues to be one of the most memorable and talked about people in all of history. And I have to admit, it seems he was a pretty remarkable guy. But...

It's just unimaginable to me how people who have actually read what we really do and do not know about Jesus, can believe what they do about Him. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if most people WERE to actually read up on it, they wouldn't believe most of is said aboutu Him in the NT. You simply couldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well here's an excerpt that just about covers things:

Jesus Christ - the Son of God?
As we face the claims of Christ, there are only four possibilities. He was either a liar, a lunatic, a legend, or the Truth. If we say He is not the Truth, we are automatically affirming one of the other three alternatives, whether we realize it or not.

(1) One possibility is that Jesus lied when He said He was God--that He knew He was not God, but deliberately deceived His hearers to lend authority to His teaching. Few, if any, seriously hold this position. Even those who deny His deity affirm that He was a great moral teacher. They fail to realize those two statements are a contradiction. Jesus could hardly be a great moral teacher if, on the most crucial point of His teaching--His identity--He was a deliberate liar.

(2) A kinder, though no less shocking possibility, is that He was sincere but self-deceived. We have a name for a person today who thinks he is God. That name is lunatic, and it certainly would apply to Christ if He were deceived on this all-important issue. But as we look at the life of Christ, we see no evidence of the abnormality and imbalance we find in a deranged person. Rather, we find the greatest composure under pressure.

(3) The third alternative is that all of the talk about His claiming to be God is a legend--that what actually happened was that His enthusiastic followers, in the third and fourth centuries, put words into His mouth He would have been shocked to hear. Were He to return, He would immediately repudiate them.

The legend theory has been significantly refuted by many discoveries of modern archeology. These have conclusively shown that the four biographies of Christ were written within the lifetime of contemporaries of Christ. Some time ago Dr. William F. Albright, world-famous archaeologist now retired from Johns Hopkins University, said that there was no reason to believe that any of the Gospels were written later than A.D. 70. For a mere legend about Christ, in the form of the Gospel, to have gained the circulation and to have had the impact it had, without one shred of basis in fact, is incredible.

For this to have happened would be as fantastic as for someone in our own time to write a biography of the late John F. Kennedy and in it say he claimed to be God, to forgive people's sins, and to have risen from the dead. Such a story is so wild it would never get off the ground because there are still too many people around who knew Kennedy. The legend theory does not hold water in the light of the early date of the Gospel manuscripts.

(4) The only other alternative is that Jesus spoke the truth. From one point of view, however, claims don't mean much. Talk is cheap. Anyone can make claims. There have been others who have claimed to be God. I could claim to be God, and you could claim to be God, but the question all of us must answer is, "What credentials do we bring to substantiate our claim?" In my case it wouldn't take you five minutes to disprove my claim. It probably wouldn't take too much more to dispose of yours. But when it comes to Jesus of Nazareth, it's not so simple. He had the credentials to back up His claim. He said, "Even though you do not believe Me, believe the evidence of the miracles, that you may learn and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father" (John 10:38).

excerpted from: http://www.everystudent.com/features/fai...KWID=3466919512

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
but God says take your problems to God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the proper phrasing -

Splendour says, "God says take your problems to god", while acknowledging that there is no reason for anyone to think that Splndour speaks for god.

luckyme

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There has always been a big to-do about whether or not Jesus should be considered divine (obviously, since this is the only real difference between Christianity and Judaism). There was one gospel -I forget which one- that makes no mention of a virgin birth, etc.

There are also many different account of the ressurection, with one having an 8 story tall Jesus coming back from the dead.

There's no doubt about it... Jesus was and continues to be one of the most memorable and talked about people in all of history. And I have to admit, it seems he was a pretty remarkable guy. But...

It's just unimaginable to me how people who have actually read what we really do and do not know about Jesus, can believe what they do about Him. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that if most people WERE to actually read up on it, they wouldn't believe most of is said aboutu Him in the NT. You simply couldn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well here's an excerpt that just about covers things:

Jesus Christ - the Son of God?
As we face the claims of Christ, there are only four possibilities. He was either a liar, a lunatic, a legend, or the Truth. If we say He is not the Truth, we are automatically affirming one of the other three alternatives, whether we realize it or not.

(1) One possibility is that Jesus lied when He said He was God--that He knew He was not God, but deliberately deceived His hearers to lend authority to His teaching. Few, if any, seriously hold this position. Even those who deny His deity affirm that He was a great moral teacher. They fail to realize those two statements are a contradiction. Jesus could hardly be a great moral teacher if, on the most crucial point of His teaching--His identity--He was a deliberate liar.

(2) A kinder, though no less shocking possibility, is that He was sincere but self-deceived. We have a name for a person today who thinks he is God. That name is lunatic, and it certainly would apply to Christ if He were deceived on this all-important issue. But as we look at the life of Christ, we see no evidence of the abnormality and imbalance we find in a deranged person. Rather, we find the greatest composure under pressure.

(3) The third alternative is that all of the talk about His claiming to be God is a legend--that what actually happened was that His enthusiastic followers, in the third and fourth centuries, put words into His mouth He would have been shocked to hear. Were He to return, He would immediately repudiate them.

The legend theory has been significantly refuted by many discoveries of modern archeology. These have conclusively shown that the four biographies of Christ were written within the lifetime of contemporaries of Christ. Some time ago Dr. William F. Albright, world-famous archaeologist now retired from Johns Hopkins University, said that there was no reason to believe that any of the Gospels were written later than A.D. 70. For a mere legend about Christ, in the form of the Gospel, to have gained the circulation and to have had the impact it had, without one shred of basis in fact, is incredible.

For this to have happened would be as fantastic as for someone in our own time to write a biography of the late John F. Kennedy and in it say he claimed to be God, to forgive people's sins, and to have risen from the dead. Such a story is so wild it would never get off the ground because there are still too many people around who knew Kennedy. The legend theory does not hold water in the light of the early date of the Gospel manuscripts.

(4) The only other alternative is that Jesus spoke the truth. From one point of view, however, claims don't mean much. Talk is cheap. Anyone can make claims. There have been others who have claimed to be God. I could claim to be God, and you could claim to be God, but the question all of us must answer is, "What credentials do we bring to substantiate our claim?" In my case it wouldn't take you five minutes to disprove my claim. It probably wouldn't take too much more to dispose of yours. But when it comes to Jesus of Nazareth, it's not so simple. He had the credentials to back up His claim. He said, "Even though you do not believe Me, believe the evidence of the miracles, that you may learn and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father" (John 10:38).

excerpted from: http://www.everystudent.com/features/fai...KWID=3466919512

[/ QUOTE ]

You SERIOUSLY cant come up with more alternatives than this? And didnt it used to be only 3 possibilities? This time next year is it going to be 5? Stop reducing this to shallow platitudes. There are far more than 4 possible options.

Its funny though, the power of this argument is premised on the idea that we would all be so afraid to call him a liar or something.

The bolded part is especially ludicrous.

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but God says take your problems to God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the proper phrasing -

Splendour says, "God says take your problems to god", while acknowledging that there is no reason for anyone to think that Splndour speaks for god.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so luckyme. I just tried to give a shortened interpretation of a difficult bible book. But here's some scripture verses that puts things into perspective:

Job 40 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson



Job 40

1-2God then confronted Job directly: : "Now what do you have to say for yourself?
Are you going to haul me, the Mighty One, into court and press charges?"
Job Answers God
I'm Ready to Shut Up and Listen
3-5 Job answered:
"I'm speechless, in awe—words fail me.
I should never have opened my mouth!
I've talked too much, way too much.
I'm ready to shut up and listen."

God's Second Set of Questions
I Want Straight Answers
6-7 God addressed Job next from the eye of the storm, and this is what he said:
"I have some more questions for you,
and I want straight answers.

8-14 "Do you presume to tell me what I'm doing wrong?
Are you calling me a sinner so you can be a saint?
Do you have an arm like my arm?
Can you shout in thunder the way I can?
Go ahead, show your stuff.
Let's see what you're made of, what you can do.
Unleash your outrage.
Target the arrogant and lay them flat.



Job 41
I Run This Universe
1-11"Or can you pull in the sea beast, Leviathan, with a fly rod and stuff him in your creel?
Can you lasso him with a rope,
or snag him with an anchor?
Will he beg you over and over for mercy,
or flatter you with flowery speech?
Will he apply for a job with you
to run errands and serve you the rest of your life?

Job 42 (The Message)
The Message (MSG)
Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson



Job 42
Job Worships God
I Babbled On About Things Far Beyond Me
1-6 Job answered God: "I'm convinced: You can do anything and everything.
Nothing and no one can upset your plans.
You asked, 'Who is this muddying the water,
ignorantly confusing the issue, second-guessing my purposes?'
I admit it. I was the one. I babbled on about things far beyond me,
made small talk about wonders way over my head.
You told me, 'Listen, and let me do the talking.
Let me ask the questions. You give the answers.'
I admit I once lived by rumors of you;
now I have it all firsthand—from my own eyes and ears!
I'm sorry—forgive me. I'll never do that again, I promise!
I'll never again live on crusts of hearsay, crumbs of rumor."

God Restores Job
I Will Accept His Prayer
7-8 After God had finished addressing Job, he turned to Eliphaz the Temanite and said, "I've had it with you and your two friends. I'm fed up! You haven't been honest either with me or about me—not the way my friend Job has. So here's what you must do. Take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my friend Job. Sacrifice a burnt offering on your own behalf. My friend Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer. He will ask me not to treat you as you deserve for talking nonsense about me, and for not being honest with me, as he has." 9 They did it. Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite did what God commanded. And God accepted Job's prayer.

10-11 After Job had interceded for his friends, God restored his fortune—and then doubled it! All his brothers and sisters and friends came to his house and celebrated. They told him how sorry they were, and consoled him for all the trouble God had brought him. Each of them brought generous housewarming gifts.

12-15 God blessed Job's later life even more than his earlier life. He ended up with fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, one thousand teams of oxen, and one thousand donkeys. He also had seven sons and three daughters. He named the first daughter Dove, the second, Cinnamon, and the third, Darkeyes. There was not a woman in that country as beautiful as Job's daughters. Their father treated them as equals with their brothers, providing the same inheritance.

16-17 Job lived on another 140 years, living to see his children and grandchildren—four generations of them! Then he died—an old man, a full life.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but God says take your problems to God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the proper phrasing -

Splendour says, "God says take your problems to god", while acknowledging that there is no reason for anyone to think that Splndour speaks for god.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so luckyme. I just tried to give a shortened interpretation of a difficult bible book.

[/ QUOTE ]

"interpretations" via splendour are not "god says'.

that was my point. thanks.

luckyme

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but God says take your problems to God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the proper phrasing -

Splendour says, "God says take your problems to god", while acknowledging that there is no reason for anyone to think that Splndour speaks for god.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so luckyme. I just tried to give a shortened interpretation of a difficult bible book.

[/ QUOTE ]

"interpretations" via splendour are not "god says'.

that was my point. thanks.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone can read the book of Job and see the emphasis at the end is on prayer and prayer is taking it to God regardless of who paraphrases it.

What is the philosophical term for lame personal attack? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Edit: Nevermind here it is:

Argumentum ad Hominem (abusive and circumstantial): the fallacy of attacking the character or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument instead of trying to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument. Often the argument is characterized simply as a personal attack.


The personal attack is also often termed an "ad personem argument": the statement or argument at issue is dropped from consideration or is ignored, and the locutor's character or circumstances are used to influence opinion.


The fallacy draws its appeal from the technique of "getting personal." The assumption is that what the locutor is saying is entirely or partially dictated by his character or special circumstances and so should be disregarded.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> These have conclusively shown that the four biographies of Christ were written within the lifetime of contemporaries of Christ. </font>

Is THIS why you're a Christian and why you believe what you do?!?! The above quote is an outright lie! I guess you can safely dispose of all your beliefs now, because there is none ... not one ...single thing ever found to be written about Christ during His lifetime. Nothing. Nada, Zero, Zilch.

Why do you turn a blind eye to this Splendour?

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> These have conclusively shown that the four biographies of Christ were written within the lifetime of contemporaries of Christ. </font>

Is THIS why you're a Christian and why you believe what you do?!?! The above quote is an outright lie! I guess you can safely dispose of all your beliefs now, because there is none ... not one ...single thing ever found to be written about Christ during His lifetime. Nothing. Nada, Zero, Zilch.

Why do you turn a blind eye to this Splendour?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you splitting hairs Lestat?

See: the lifetime of contemporaries of Christ.

The disciples were only with Christ for 2-3 years before his death and resurrection.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but God says take your problems to God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the proper phrasing -

Splendour says, "God says take your problems to god", while acknowledging that there is no reason for anyone to think that Splndour speaks for god.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so luckyme. I just tried to give a shortened interpretation of a difficult bible book.

[/ QUOTE ]

"interpretations" via splendour are not "god says'.

that was my point. thanks.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone can read the book of Job and see the emphasis at the end is on prayer and prayer is taking it to God regardless of who paraphrases it.

What is the philosophical term for lame personal attack? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is simpler than that. ( and it has nothing to do with you throwing your apron over your head and running out of the room snivelling that it's all about you).

If you can claim to speak for god, then so can my neighbor ... that should worry us.
That leads us to realizing that no one can claim in a debate that they are right because "god says"... it's really that simple.

luckyme

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but God says take your problems to God.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the proper phrasing -

Splendour says, "God says take your problems to god", while acknowledging that there is no reason for anyone to think that Splndour speaks for god.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so luckyme. I just tried to give a shortened interpretation of a difficult bible book.

[/ QUOTE ]

"interpretations" via splendour are not "god says'.

that was my point. thanks.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone can read the book of Job and see the emphasis at the end is on prayer and prayer is taking it to God regardless of who paraphrases it.

What is the philosophical term for lame personal attack? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Edit: Nevermind here it is:

Argumentum ad Hominem (abusive and circumstantial): the fallacy of attacking the character or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument instead of trying to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument. Often the argument is characterized simply as a personal attack.


The personal attack is also often termed an "ad personem argument": the statement or argument at issue is dropped from consideration or is ignored, and the locutor's character or circumstances are used to influence opinion.


The fallacy draws its appeal from the technique of "getting personal." The assumption is that what the locutor is saying is entirely or partially dictated by his character or special circumstances and so should be disregarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is most certainly not a lame personal attack. The crux of the issue is the difference between your interpretation and what God says. He isnt saying its a bad argument because you are incompetent, he is saying it is a bad argument if it doesnt distinguish between incompetent human beings (all of us) and God.