Like it? Hate it?

[markuisis]

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like lets say i lead this flop for 6 and i am raised to 22 - do u guys just dump the hand here? this is such a good board to raise against since ill miss it so often and most ppl wouldnt go nuts with a set on such a dry board. And if we r folding out aq on this board to any resistance then we can pretty much never ever take heat.

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we flopped TPTK against a pretty much unknown w/AQ, we should not be folding to a single flop raise ever.

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so u felt the flop beating only a bluff? do u cold call raise then c/c turn (if ur shoving flop over a 3bet thats pretty atrocious IMO)? isnt that essentially the same line i took except i keep these sa/wb (plus the occasional thin value bet) pots smaller. I dont mean to be annoying, just trying to debate it out.

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i'm usually not 3-betting this flop because the board is so dry. and callign a flop raise and checking to him on the turn is not the same as the line you took, your line doesn't earn as much money when ahead.

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i think my line is more likely to be ahead of his range (he is almost never raising worse queens on this flop - so pretty much its air or monster if he 3bets flop id say), but i think the smaller the pot, the more likely he is to bluff and the weaker my line looks doing what i did (more bluffs in his range). Plus, i generally dont wanna be playing too many pots for stacks where im either sa/wb.

[markuisis]

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just bet the turn. you are likely ahead, and have tonnes of outs to improve (don't forget the gutter). obviously call a raise.

as played call down.

c/r the Turn aint bad either

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it seems like im disagreeing with every1 so sry, but c/raising turn really just folds out everything i beat, its not like im afraid of clubs (in fact i want clubs to stick around obviously)

[Fat Nicky]

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like lets say i lead this flop for 6 and i am raised to 22 - do u guys just dump the hand here? this is such a good board to raise against since ill miss it so often and most ppl wouldnt go nuts with a set on such a dry board. And if we r folding out aq on this board to any resistance then we can pretty much never ever take heat.

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we flopped TPTK against a pretty much unknown w/AQ, we should not be folding to a single flop raise ever.

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so u felt the flop beating only a bluff? do u cold call raise then c/c turn (if ur shoving flop over a 3bet thats pretty atrocious IMO)? isnt that essentially the same line i took except i keep these sa/wb (plus the occasional thin value bet) pots smaller. I dont mean to be annoying, just trying to debate it out.

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i'm usually not 3-betting this flop because the board is so dry. and callign a flop raise and checking to him on the turn is not the same as the line you took, your line doesn't earn as much money when ahead.

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i think my line is more likely to be ahead of his range (he is almost never raising worse queens on this flop - so pretty much its air or monster if he 3bets flop id say), but i think the smaller the pot, the more likely he is to bluff and the weaker my line looks doing what i did (more bluffs in his range). Plus, i generally dont wanna be playing too many pots for stacks where im either sa/wb.

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not sure what more i could say here. but you seem to think just because you're SA/WB, that c/c maximizes value (or minimized losses). i think this is wrong, and I already explained why.

[Fat Nicky]

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it seems like im disagreeing with every1 so sry, but c/raising turn really just folds out everything i beat, its not like im afraid of clubs (in fact i want clubs to stick around obviously)

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wrong. lots of players overplay their hands (already mentioned). and if he has a club draw, you want as much money to go in on the turn as possible.

[markuisis]

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it seems like im disagreeing with every1 so sry, but c/raising turn really just folds out everything i beat, its not like im afraid of clubs (in fact i want clubs to stick around obviously)

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wrong. lots of players overplay their hands (already mentioned). and if he has a club draw, you want as much money to go in on the turn as possible.


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All im saying is that as the pot gets bigger, he is less likely to bluff or be putting in more money with worse queens - do u disagree? And as for clubs, do i raise to price them in cause i want them to draw? This seems bad since:
a) not all clubs stick around to a raise here (depending on the size obv)
b) all his bluffs auto-muck
c) very unlikely that worse queens felt a turn c/raise here (it seems like every1 is always saying that ppl auto-felt any top pair, even sum1 who had tag stats - 18/16 - like him )
d) i price myself in to felt against a set

[megatron]

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i think that a thinking player prob realizes my line is almost never a q and likely some sort of reluctant mid pair - which means that i think he will be value betting kq and qj occasionally and def aq, along with bluffing a decent amount of the time also, obviously a set plays this exact way too though but ive only gotta be right 1 in 3 times and i think he is bluffing or value betting thin at least that often.

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A thinking player is rarely putting you on an underpair then giving you 3 streets of value. The more likely scenario is you lose at least one street of betting when they check behind for showdown value/pot control.

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they arent putting me on an underpair or they arent putting me on an underpair that pays them off? I think my hands looks exaaactly like an underpair here and if they figure that im bluff catching with it - they could easily fire a big river bet (such as he did) representing a bluff, that being said, i still think his range is mostly polarized in between air and monsters with a value bet from a good queen every now and then.

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I don't think your line definitely looks like an underpair. You raised pre flop. When you call my flop and turn leads on such a dry board I have you strong or a suited QX hand that turned a draw. I wouldn't think you'd be calling me down with an underpair. If I do have t's or J's as part of your range I am sure your not calling the river with them. I am not making the river bet with kq or qj here.

[markuisis]

dont mean to be clever, but really the way some ppl make it seem, that everyone is always overplaying their hands and felting any top pair or any draw (i agree some do, but to generalize that every1 does is pretty absurd), none of us should be in ssnl as we should all be doubling up through almost every1 at our table consistently with any hand equal or better to tptk.

[Fat Nicky]

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All im saying is that as the pot gets bigger, he is less likely to bluff or be putting in more money with worse queens - do u disagree?

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i don't know what type of player he is. all you said was TAG. some TAGs bluff often, some don't. some value bet light, some check for pot control. we don't have this info, so when all else fails, bet and try to get value out of your strong hands instead of making things up in your head to add validity to your line.

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And as for clubs, do i raise to price them in cause i want them to draw? This seems bad since:
a) not all clubs stick around to a raise here (depending on the size obv)
b) all his bluffs auto-muck
c) very unlikely that worse queens felt a turn c/raise here (it seems like every1 is always saying that ppl auto-felt any top pair, even sum1 who had tag stats - 18/16 - like him )
d) i price myself in to felt against a set

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usually, i liek to raise to price them out, because some players call anyways with incorrect odds.

if clubs fold, great, you win the pot and they don't draw.

yes, all his bluff auto-muck, oh well, that's the price we pay when trying to get extra value sometimes.

sure, some queens will fold sometimes, again, the price we pay to try to get extra value when we're against a player that felts TP.

if he has a set, it's too bad, we're losing money and there's not much we can do about it.

(btw, i wouldn't be c/r this turn often, because i would just be betting my hand most of the time)

[Fat Nicky]

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dont mean to be clever, but really the way some ppl make it seem, that everyone is always overplaying their hands and felting any top pair or any draw (i agree some do, but to generalize that every1 does is pretty absurd), none of us should be in ssnl as we should all be doubling up through almost every1 at our table consistently with any hand equal or better to tptk.

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so we're wrong to assume that players over value TP, but it's it's correct for you to assume that they bluff and value bet light??

[markuisis]

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i think that a thinking player prob realizes my line is almost never a q and likely some sort of reluctant mid pair - which means that i think he will be value betting kq and qj occasionally and def aq, along with bluffing a decent amount of the time also, obviously a set plays this exact way too though but ive only gotta be right 1 in 3 times and i think he is bluffing or value betting thin at least that often.

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A thinking player is rarely putting you on an underpair then giving you 3 streets of value. The more likely scenario is you lose at least one street of betting when they check behind for showdown value/pot control.

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they arent putting me on an underpair or they arent putting me on an underpair that pays them off? I think my hands looks exaaactly like an underpair here and if they figure that im bluff catching with it - they could easily fire a big river bet (such as he did) representing a bluff, that being said, i still think his range is mostly polarized in between air and monsters with a value bet from a good queen every now and then.

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I don't think your line definitely looks like an underpair. You raised pre flop. When you call my flop and turn leads on such a dry board I have you strong or a suited QX hand that turned a draw. I wouldn't think you'd be calling me down with an underpair. If I do have t's or J's as part of your range I am sure your not calling the river with them. I am not making the river bet with kq or qj here.

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I agree with ur reasoning the most, and like i said, i dont expect queens to make up too big a part of his range (except for aq which i think def bets the river), but i do think that if u combine the time he is value betting a queen and bluffing, it makes up more than 1/3 of the hands he is betting the river with (essentially im only beat by 1 of two flopped sets if we dont assume he spiked right?), so given pot odds, think i have to call the river, do u disagree?