Interesting religious occurrence today, thoughts?

[vhawk01]

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The reason we're being sarcastic is that we've had dozens of posts like this. It's hard to keep making the effort to respond clearly, especially since the thread usually devolves quickly, regardless.

With respect to your point, I don't see any dilemma here.

This is a post about psychic/paranormal phenomena. I don't believe in such phenomena. I also (due to a respect for scientific rigor and the tendency of many people to be "fooled by randomness") only respect concrete and well-documented findings. This is especially true of second-hand sources - while I'm not implying that you're lying, or even that most of those with such stories are lying, I have heard so many such rumors from so many sources (some even documented on Snopes or other sites) that it would be absurd for me to believe them all. I think many people do tend to exaggerate (talking about themselves in a story when it really happened to a friend of a friend of a friend...), and some spin tales because they want their view to be accepted and feel that it's more powerful to tell a personal story than to describe a "what if" scenario. Finally, many people give incomplete information - a person may say his family member was "healed by prayer" and that the doctors were bewildered, but when the facts come in the doctors say it was the intensive treatment that brought the cancer into remission. Many of the Christians here have claimed to have close, personal family members whose cancers went into remission. The problem is that spontaneous remission is pretty well-documented, and we know for a fact that it happens very rarely. Either there has been a coincidence more massive than the ones you're referencing, and a huge proportion of those linked to such remissions have found this message board, or somebody isn't telling the whole truth (not necessarily you, but someone).

It is for these and many more reasons that science uses particular standards to determine what constitutes a valid empirical analysis. In some cases observation is enough to raise serious questions - but to answer those question, experimental verification of a scientist's predictions is necessary.

Imagine, for example, that a scientist observes a huge, hairy creature stumbling through the woods. An ordinary person might say "it must have been Bigfoot," but this is a scientist. So he moves on to the next step in the scientific method - he generates some reasonable hypotheses that will sufficiently explain his observation. Maybe it's Bigfoot. Maybe he's hallucinating. Maybe he saw a deer or moose, and misperceived it. Maybe someone was wearing a "Bigfoot suit." The scientist considers which hypothesis seems most likely - he knows that many Bigfoot sightings have come from the area, and there are no deer, moose, or bear populations, so he decides the most likely hypothesis is that a man in a Bigfoot suit is tricking him.

But that is just the beginning of his inquiry. He has a hypothesis that he thinks is most likely, but he keeps the others in mind - his goal now is to falsify his original hypothesis. If he can't do that, then he may conclude that his hypothesis is probably true. So his goal is to prove his idea false - to disprove himself, basically. How can he do that? Well, there is one method that is used in almost all cases that is very effective. The scientist decides which results his hypothesis would predict. For example, if it's really Bigfoot, then he expects to see large footprints in the area of the sighting. If it's another animal, he expects that the animal is nearby. And if it's a man in a suit, then the man (and the suit) must likewise be nearby.

It's problematic because he has no way to control the situation and make sure he can isolate variables, but he is a scientist so he'll do the best he can to try and test his predictions. He predicts there will be a man and a suit nearby, so he attempts to prove otherwise with a thorough search of the area. Before long, he comes across a cabin. Through the window, he sees a disheveled man eating lunch. He continues to search, and behind the cabin, under some wood, he discovers a Bigfoot costume. He has failed to falsify his hypothesis, which means he has succeeded in strengthening it.

But this still doesn't mean that he saw a man in a bear suit. It's possible he saw the real Bigfoot, and the man coincidentally happens to have a Bigfoot costume (perhaps from an earlier Halloween). The scientist has to make a judgment call about whether to draw a conclusion from the evidence he has found or whether to gather more evidence. He sees that the costume is hidden in a strange place and has seen recent use, and decides he has enough evidence to conclude with a high degree of likelihood that "Bigfoot" sightings are actually just the man in his costume. This may sound like a big, complicated process - but it's the best way we've found to determine what is true and what isn't. Unfortunately there are always alternative hypotheses - science can never prove anything - but if we work hard enough to verify our predictions, then we can achieve a level of accuracy higher than most people ever feel they need. Back to the initial question.

The big issue here is that psychic phenomena are no threat to my atheism. In fact, I would be delighted to learn that they really happen. Let's imagine that these events happened exactly as you believe they did - one of your friends felt a message from God that turned out to be a premonition, and another saw both his parents contract cancer at the same time and, purely through the power of his prayers, go into remission simultaneously. There are many reasons throughout the thread why these seem to be unlikely scenarios, but I'll give them to you for the sake of argument.

Now what? Do I believe in God? No, in fact God doesn't even occur to me at first. My perspective is very different from yours on the matter, so the hypothesis that I find most likely (that the human mind has special powers) is not the same as the hypothesis that you find most likely (presumably that the Christian God intervened on your friends' behalves). What's important is that there are literally thousands of reasonable hypotheses in this case. Maybe other versions of God (or gods) are responsible, maybe there's a mystical sort of collective among humans, maybe belief affects reality, maybe there's a Buddhist mechanic... These things are not an indication of the Christian God until you predict results that would separate that hypothesis from the heap, and those results are accurate.

I know this is something of a recap of what's already been said, but if you want to understand our perspective I think this viewpoint is important. Many atheists try to approach everything in life (especially observable phenomena) from a scientific perspective. Which is why, if Christians make a prediction and that prediction doesn't come true, it's a big deal. And why, if Christians make an observation, it's not.

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I was lying. I've never known anyone who had cancer, prayed to God, and died.

[vhawk01]

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Apparently an atheist tends to be also be a sarcastic prick.

OP: The girl is religious, so I'd guess she tends to give God a lot of credit for her subconscious & intuition. We all have moments where we can sense something. Sometimes we're right & seem clairvoyant & sometimes not. I'd imagine when your friend is wrong, she forgets it. When she's right, it's God.

When I call my Mom, she occasionally says I knew it was you calling (she doesn't have caller ID) & she claims it's her mother's instinct. However whenever her phones rings she assumes it's me calling. When it's not me, she forgets it. When it is me, it reinforces her belief. She knows this & it's just something she says makes her feel good. Maybe your friend is less aware of her thought process.

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Do you think the only people responding sarcastically in this thread are atheists? Or does being a theist make you a judgmental prick?

[Wubbie075]

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I was lying. I've never known anyone who had cancer, prayed to God, and died.

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I was not lying. My sister and aunt both died of cancer despite prayer. I guess everyone just did not pray hard enough.

I did, however, have an experience during my lunch hour very similar to OP's friend. I was walking down the street, and I saw a woman standing there, kinda looking around and something told me to speak to her. Here's the part that blows my mind.. SHE NEEDED DIRECTIONS!!! I am now led to the inescapable conclusion that God put me on that street in order to help this woman... amazing, huh??

[kurto]

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I was lying. I've never known anyone who had cancer, prayed to God, and died.

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I was not lying. My sister and aunt both died of cancer despite prayer. I guess everyone just did not pray hard enough.

I did, however, have an experience during my lunch hour very similar to OP's friend. I was walking down the street, and I saw a woman standing there, kinda looking around and something told me to speak to her. Here's the part that blows my mind.. SHE NEEDED DIRECTIONS!!! I am now led to the inescapable conclusion that God put me on that street in order to help this woman... amazing, huh??

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I had a similar story. Someone gave me a look and I maintained eye contact too long. They smiled and told me how they really needed a cigarette and could I help them out.

Its like a supernatural being gave me the power to recognize that this guy needed something.

Unfortunately I quit smoking months ago and couldn't help the guy out. So subtract a point for the supernatural being.

[SitNHit]

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i predict big things for this thread.

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Let me start it off with a bang:

Occurances like this are far more terrifying for Christians than for atheists. If there is proof that God exists, your whole life is meaningless.

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Christians believe in humans who have spoke and saw God. Darn, life is meaningless!

God could tell someone through feeling, notice he never said God spoke to her so that doesnt mean she heard words(which doesn't discredit her story), just means that feeling told her to do that.

I don't think I am qualified to make a determination to whether this is true or not, and either do any of you.

BTW, your spaghetti monster comments are way beneath you, I truly think your better then that sir.

Mike.

[Duke]

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Just because you believe things like this are coincidences doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong.

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It's much different to prove something incorrect than correct. Positive proof is difficult to come by, and is always vulnerable to any counterexample. Negative proof is pretty easy, since you only have to "break" the idea once. I do not have to be right about anything for you to be wrong, as I merely need to point out a critical flaw or counterexample.

[Prodigy54321]

I don't know why there's all this hate for this post...

I do not believe that your story is true..either that it never happened or that it didn't happen the way that you described it...it seems pretty unbelievable...and I hope you don't blame me for being skeptical here..maybe it did happen, but unless I saw it myself, I'm not being too sure that it actually happened.

If it did happen, I actually think that it is somewhat remarkable...the most remarkable thing being that your friend would not have done that unless absolutely compelled to by an outside force..this, however, is a leap that I cannot afford, as I do not know this person...as much as it would amaze me that some people I know would do this, it would not amaze me for others (few though I might add..this is especially peculiar)..

the rest of this does fall under the..what of the failed attempts?..type questions, etc.

consider this possible explanation.

she saw a woman who looked as though she was hiding some pain at that moment...she identified this, as most humans can, because our senses are very sensitive to subtle things that show peoples emotions...as a religious person, she construed this as a sign from God to approach this woman...this I think is important because believing that God is telling you to do something is certianly powerful enough of a motivation to make a person who is typically unlikely to do something, do it anyway...and, as her senses predicted, the woman had been suffering internally .

the truth is, however, that even if this story occurred, it offers no evidence that a god was involved, it only offers evidence that this girl believed that a god was involved.

what is a real shame if a god exists and does things like this and expects them to be taken as reason to believe in him...is that he lacks respect for humans in that he doesn't give us something that can be evaluated rationally and logically...he must know that thinking logically helps us to not come to false conclusions...it is not enough to say that it is because he wants us to have faith in him..there is no aim of faith, you cannot just use faith to believe in him, but not have faith in other incorrect conclusion, faith does not work that way.

[DonkBluffer]

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i predict big things for this thread.

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Let me start it off with a bang:

Occurances like this are far more terrifying for Christians than for atheists. If there is proof that God exists, your whole life is meaningless.

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Christians believe in humans who have spoke and saw God. Darn, life is meaningless!

God could tell someone through feeling, notice he never said God spoke to her so that doesnt mean she heard words(which doesn't discredit her story), just means that feeling told her to do that.

I don't think I am qualified to make a determination to whether this is true or not, and either do any of you.

BTW, your spaghetti monster comments are way beneath you, I truly think your better then that sir.

Mike.

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I think superstitious beliefs like this can only exist because of ignorance. For example, you say god could tell her by giving her a feeling. A feeling is certain activity in the brain/body. It's very complicated, with billions of neurons and inhibitors and exhibitors and hormones, etc. involved. Now, how would god affect someone's feeling? Add a little serotonin? Activate some neurons?

[Prodigy54321]

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Christians believe in humans who have spoke and saw God. Darn, life is meaningless!


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this sarcastic response shows that you didn't understand his post..perhaps you should ask him what he was referring to...

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God could tell someone through feeling, notice he never said God spoke to her so that doesnt mean she heard words(which doesn't discredit her story), just means that feeling told her to do that.


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they are the same thing for our purposes

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BTW, your spaghetti monster comments are way beneath you, I truly think your better then that sir.

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you keep dismissing people's comparisons to the FSB, yet you never give reasons why you don't think that it is valid.

unless you can show that this occurrence could take place if god exists, but not if the FSB exists, you have no right to make a determination as to which (if either) this experience indicates.

for a comparison that may sit better with you..

a christian claims that god told them that the earth was created 100 million years ago.

a muslim claims that god told them that the earth was created 200 million years ago.

what conclusions can we come to based on this information?

is it still likely that the christian is telling the truth?

[SitNHit]

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i predict big things for this thread.

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Let me start it off with a bang:

Occurances like this are far more terrifying for Christians than for atheists. If there is proof that God exists, your whole life is meaningless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Christians believe in humans who have spoke and saw God. Darn, life is meaningless!

God could tell someone through feeling, notice he never said God spoke to her so that doesnt mean she heard words(which doesn't discredit her story), just means that feeling told her to do that.

I don't think I am qualified to make a determination to whether this is true or not, and either do any of you.

BTW, your spaghetti monster comments are way beneath you, I truly think your better then that sir.

Mike.

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I think superstitious beliefs like this can only exist because of ignorance. For example, you say god could tell her by giving her a feeling. A feeling is certain activity in the brain/body. It's very complicated, with billions of neurons and inhibitors and exhibitors and hormones, etc. involved. Now, how would god affect someone's feeling? Add a little serotonin? Activate some neurons?

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Well your choosing believe that there is no God so the only feelings we have are natural are with our brains and body.

Those who believe in God think he can give us special feelings and inspiration as reward for choosing right things in regards to faith in him and his works. So if you don't understand by now that we believe in things more then science and math can just prove, you will just be robotic in how you discuss this in the future.

I find it to be pure ignorance to think that you feel feelings only cause of brain/body and that you don't think even if there even is a God he wouldn't guide us through feeling. I think that's a very ignorant position.

When you might a right decision, you feel a certain way, and wrong you feel a certain way, you just don't feel the way most of the time. If that decision is because you believe in God, isn't that a feeling inspired by him, guided by his works and believed presence? And If there is a God, and you are really a spiritual, don't you think he would guide you through some hard times like he said in the Bible by maybe giving a little feeling, etc and seeing if we follow it and if we choose to follow it, that's known as a blessing.