Michael Moore and socialized medicine

[karlwig]

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The problem is that people believe every individual has a right to the best medical care money can buy. (How can you value a life?) The problem is, that there isn't enough money for everyone to consume the best health care money can buy.

Socialized health care would only benefit those who don't have any health care today (the poor). Everyone else (the majority) will see substantial decreases in quality and availability of their care once their employers stop buying coverage, which they would under a socialized system. Wages would not likely rise much in this scenario, but taxes most definitely will. So everyone who has a real job today will get less pay and worse health care.

I do think government should provide coverage for children since they can't provide it for themselves in a lot of cases where parents have other priorities.

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OMG. You should really try to study countries that have socialized health care systems.

One thing is for sure: It would benefit more people than a free market system. If you disagree with this, you don't know what you're talking about.

Now isn't it worth paying a little extra in tax to save people's lives? Oh I forgot, they're poor. Yeah, I guess we should forget about them then.

But really, even rich people could get so sick that medical bills would be too expensive, so I think your arguments are a bit flawed.

You say that since everybody wants the best health care, there isn't money enough to make everybody happy. "You can't put a price on a life".

Guess what. That's EXCACTLY why countries have a social health care systems. Everybody gets treated the SAME, since no life is worth more than another.

One more thing. Yes, it costs money, but it's just a matter of priorities.

For example, in the "socialist" country I live in, people with average income pay about the same tax as in the us. And still health care is free! How could this be? Well, we don't use 1/3 of our budgets on military. So if your goverment could just stop making wars for some time, you could afford free health care for all. Wouldn't that be great, instead of using that money on tanks? No?

[NeBlis]

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Now isn't it worth paying a little extra in tax to save people's lives? Oh I forgot, they're poor. Yeah, I guess we should forget about them then.


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NO its not, and its not even close. Its perfectly fine to give money to save the lives of poor people etc. But under no circumstance is it excusable to rob me and force me to pay for the health care of a stranger.

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"You can't put a price on a life".


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ofc you can !! actuaries do it everyday.

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Everybody gets treated the SAME, since no life is worth more than another.


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newsflash all men are equal but some are more equal than others. Some lives are more valuable. Bill Gates is more valuable that a squeegee bum. My life is more valuable to me than yours or anyone else. Yours is worth more to you than mine

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And still health care is free!

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its not free. the money comes from somewhere.

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Well, we don't use 1/3 of our budgets on military. So if your government could just stop making wars for some time, you could afford free health care for all.

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I'm with you on elimination of needless war spending. But your still not going to justify stealing from me to pay for some idiot who won't / can't get a job.

[PLOlover]

quick thought, in US the health care industry is mostly regulated. AMA and stuff. except for places like OR where naturpaths can be licensed.

also some crazy things like
http://ilfpost.org/?p=62
can happen where your dr. is legally prevented from helping you.

how do you free marketers explain that?

do you think there are systemic problems aside from the whole socialiation argument?
I mean, if you're poor but healthy, is there any reason to have a ceasarean, or really any reason to have your baby in a hospital?

[revots33]

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NO its not, and its not even close. Its perfectly fine to give money to save the lives of poor people etc. But under no circumstance is it excusable to rob me and force me to pay for the health care of a stranger.

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I think this is the root of the issue, and probably why the term "socialized _______" is so frowned on in the US. We are an individualistic society, not a collective one. Michael Moore even mentioned this in the interview.

I read a USA Today article a while back about Denmark's "Flexicurity" model, and they interviewed Danish citizens about their system. Two intersting quotes from the article:

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Kjaer is a divorced father with a 7-year-old son to help support. He says his son can get a free education, too, and other help as he grows up, if he needs it. "If you fall here, someone along the way will catch you and help you," he says. "I pay my 50% taxes with a smile because they're worth it."

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"The big difference between the United States and Denmark is you put an emphasis on individualism vs. the collective," she says. "We have no working poor. There are no kids living in cars with no child care. We pay high taxes for it. But in the end, how much money do you need?"

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I can't imagine either of these (especially the bolded parts), ever coming out of a US citizen's mouth. It is a totally different mindset, and I think it depends who you talk to which one is "better".

[maxtower]

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One thing is for sure: It would benefit more people than a free market system. If you disagree with this, you don't know what you're talking about.

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This is exactly what I said. More will benefit, but at an expense to others when they wouldn't pay for it themselves.

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Now isn't it worth paying a little extra in tax to save people's lives? Oh I forgot, they're poor. Yeah, I guess we should forget about them then.


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They could buy their own insurance with the money they save from ridiculous taxes.

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But really, even rich people could get so sick that medical bills would be too expensive, so I think your arguments are a bit flawed.


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No, rich people buy themselves insurance to prevent something like that from happening.

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You say that since everybody wants the best health care, there isn't money enough to make everybody happy. "You can't put a price on a life".


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I think we should put a price on life, otherwise costs for the society spiral out of control. The more productive members of society will get the better health care, producing more societal benefits for everyone, instead of everyone getting the same worse health care.
Suppose a procedure requires a 2 day wait because there is too much demand for it under the social plan. This costs everyone because otherwise the productive guy would have gotten in and out and be back to work without the wait.

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One more thing. Yes, it costs money, but it's just a matter of priorities.

For example, in the "socialist" country I live in, people with average income pay about the same tax as in the us. And still health care is free! How could this be? Well, we don't use 1/3 of our budgets on military. So if your goverment could just stop making wars for some time, you could afford free health care for all. Wouldn't that be great, instead of using that money on tanks? No?

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I wish my government would end the war. Unfortunately, 51% of Americans thought it would be a good idea to keep killing.

I don't know what country you are from with socialized health care, but I would be willing to bet that you pay more in taxes than I do.

[NeBlis]

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He says his son can get a free education


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I pay my 50% taxes with a smile

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what an idiot !! that "free" education must be freakin GREAT!

[ShakeZula06]

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His argument was that health care should not be a for-profit business. Insurance companies are beholden to their shareholders to maximize their profit. This creates a natural conflict between what's good for the shareholders, and what might be best for the patient

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I guess he think shoe salesman are in natural conflict with shoe consumers too.
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He then mentioned that we already have some socialized services in the USA, which people have no problem with.

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We have some capitalistic services here too, which people have no problem with.
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He argued that if fire departments were forced to maximize revenues for shareholders, it would be a terrible idea that might compromise safety in life-or-death situations.

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How?
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Since healthcare is also often a life-or death issue, a socialized approach, where profit concerns are removed from the equation, is the best answer.

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So something should be socialized only when it's whatever is deemed an important issue to him? So his position comes down to simple fear mongering (this is too important to be left up to the free market, better it be left up to the same government he thinks caused 9/11).

[ShakeZula06]

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Explain how for-profit fire departments would be half-assed and compromise safety. Won't they want to do the job well so that they get good "business"?

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Around the turn of the last century we had for-profit fire departments. They did in fact do a half-assed job and compromised safety. That's why they were socialized.

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link?

[karlwig]

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Now isn't it worth paying a little extra in tax to save people's lives? Oh I forgot, they're poor. Yeah, I guess we should forget about them then.


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NO its not, and its not even close. Its perfectly fine to give money to save the lives of poor people etc. But under no circumstance is it excusable to rob me and force me to pay for the health care of a stranger.

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"You can't put a price on a life".


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ofc you can !! actuaries do it everyday.

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Everybody gets treated the SAME, since no life is worth more than another.


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newsflash all men are equal but some are more equal than others. Some lives are more valuable. Bill Gates is more valuable that a squeegee bum. My life is more valuable to me than yours or anyone else. Yours is worth more to you than mine

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And still health care is free!

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its not free. the money comes from somewhere.

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Well, we don't use 1/3 of our budgets on military. So if your government could just stop making wars for some time, you could afford free health care for all.

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I'm with you on elimination of needless war spending. But your still not going to justify stealing from me to pay for some idiot who won't / can't get a job.

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I really disagree that some people are worth more than others, but of course the american system is build around that claim, so I'm not surprised you say that.

This stealing-mentality of yours, I'm not sure if I get it. You're gonna pay for your health insurance anyway, right?

My point is, it's very possible to have this system WITHOUT increasing taxes. Now what this means is that nobody will "steal" any more from you than they actually do now. You have to pay your taxes anyway. All you can hope for is that they use it for a good cause.
Let's have a few scenarios:

1) We use the money on national health care. Yes, that includes you too. You get that money back EVERY TIME you really need it for medical treatment, and so does others. If that's stealing, you might as well say that insurance is stealing, cause if you don't get sick, you didn't get value from your money. Only difference is that social health care would be an insurance for all citizens instead of individuals.
2) We use it on bombing stuff.
3) We send people into space.

Well, I guess space is pretty cool.

The problem with the US is that you pay A LOT of taxes as it is, still your goverment use it on stupid things.

A socialist sollution is not about paying as much tax as possible, as some people here seems to think.
It's about using the tax you do pay in an alternative way. This way includes health care for all, free schools, money when you get sick from work etc etc, so that everyone is secured a minimum of wealth in their lives, despite their financial/medical/educational situation.

Now I understand you don't like me calling it "free", since everybody actually pay for it. Of course you're right in that. Maybe "cover" is the best word. It's really like an insurance, of course in a bigger scale.

Just if you wonder: Although I live in one of those "socialist" western countries, it doesn't mean it's not democratic and free, as some people here seems to think. Of course we have a free market, the freedom of speech and all the other things.

Only difference is that the tax goes to different things + the really rich ones have to pay more. I don't think it's a bad deal at all, as I think it's better that NO ONE suffers, than a few ones having more money than they can spend anyway.

Of course I realize most of Americans don't like this idea. And I doubt it's gonna happen over there.
But at least I hope you now understand what I'm trying to say.
We do disagree, but I respect your opinions.
Take care.

[ShakeZula06]

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One thing is for sure: It would benefit more people than a free market system. If you disagree with this, you don't know what you're talking about.

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It would serve more people probably, but it would be a downgrade for most, and it's not a net benefit for the individuals involved by any stretch of the word.
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Now isn't it worth paying a little extra in tax to save people's lives? Oh I forgot, they're poor. Yeah, I guess we should forget about them then.

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No ones stopping you from helping them or convincing others to help them. How about you go work on that instead of taking money out of my pocket while acting like you have some moral high ground?
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Guess what. That's EXCACTLY why countries have a social health care systems. Everybody gets treated the SAME, since no life is worth more than another.


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This is just dumb. Bill Gate's life has had a huge positive on society. Some bum with no job just takes from others. If you want to help a bum out, go ahead. Don't force me to subsidize him.
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One more thing. Yes, it costs money, but it's just a matter of priorities.

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Subjective priorities you want to enforce on others.
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For example, in the "socialist" country I live in, people with average income pay about the same tax as in the us. And still health care is free! How could this be? Well, we don't use 1/3 of our budgets on military. So if your goverment could just stop making wars for some time, you could afford free health care for all. Wouldn't that be great, instead of using that money on tanks? No?

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Instead of killing you, I'm just going to break your arm, see that's better right? Sure but I'd rather you not harm me at all in the first place.