Psychoactive drugs - whats your position on them?

[Rduke55]

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These are parasites that form cysts in your brain, and are thought to produce THC-like toxins to alter your brain chemistry.

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You do know that THC mimics normal chemicals in your brain (in the cannabinoid system) don't you? I think calling it a "toxin" is pretty shady.

And just to be clear, you're suggesting the toxoplasmosis effect is because of alterations in the cannabinoid system?

Do you have citations on any of this?

[hmkpoker]

As a slight hijack-

Rduke: one of my psych professors said that marijuana can be harmful to teenagers' physical development, like it impairs neural development during their formative years. Is there anything to this, or is the damage just limited to lowered testosterone levels?

[Rduke55]

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As a slight hijack-

Rduke: one of my psych professors said that marijuana can be harmful to teenagers' physical development, like it impairs neural development during their formative years. Is there anything to this, or is the damage just limited to lowered testosterone levels?

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Well it almost certainly has an effect in fetuses, infants and younger children. As a teenager, any effects that I've seen in the literature are subtle. For a while people were touting amotivational syndrome as an effect but that either seems to resolve itself after abstinence or there are confounding factors (we are talking about teenagers after all).

Outside of the brain I would imagine that heavy, chronic use could have an effect due to messing with the hormones but then it'd probably be similar to a slightly poor diet and about 1,000 other things. Most of the literature on marijuana and development during adolescence is concerned with neural or psychological effects (this is the area where a lot of the "smoking weed can cause schizophrenia in susceptible individuals" stuff comes from)

[soon2bepro]

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But the fact that pot can send you completely and irreversibly mad, and my own experience with pot users, leads me to believe that pot is a pretty nasty drug. Scientists have barely a clue how the brain works. You can't definitively say pot is "pretty harmless". Not even close.

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It's interesting how you say it can't be told that it's harmless because we don't know [censored] about how the brain works, yet you state that it's definitely armful and can trigger schizophrenia. Please provide some sources. Most of the statistics and experiments that seem to show this aren't scientifically sound.

[hmkpoker]

It sounds like all of this boils down to lowered testosterone levels.

[Phil153]

I'll answer everyone at once.

Regarding toxoplasmosis and THC - I'm an idiot, there's some evidence suggesting LSD like compounds in people affected. See here: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060127.html

m_theory: [ QUOTE ]
Amphetamines are endogenic and without a doubt non neurotoxic in typical doses. Their harmful effects arise from the stimulant nature of the drug.

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lol. See rduke's "are you kidding me" - talk to him about it, he's the one claiming it's a potent neurotoxin that's so horrible for the brain. But I still don't see decent evidence of short term use in normal doses being bad for the brain.

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This just shows blatant lack of understanding. Amphetamines most certainly do not cause impaired judgement. They cause heightened alertness.

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I was discussing the long term cognitive effects of repeated use. I know exactly what amphetamines do when taken.

rduke:[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying that out of the all the drugs with abuse potential marijuana is the leader for triggering schizophrenia?

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I am absolutely saying that. Here's the link I posted above, read the damn thing if you want to continue talking about this. It links to plenty of journal articles, which are worth reading. http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevent...reetdrugs.html
The experience of people working in mental health completely backs this up. Everyone knows it.

To the guy who said I'm taking this position based on my own experience, you're wrong, I've never had experience with schizophrenics as family/friends, although someone in my family works in mental health services. I suggest READING THE [censored] LINK. There's some pretty damning studies in there.

soontobepro - There's a huge difference between claiming something is harmless and claiming it's strongly linked and probably causative in X disease. One requires a [censored] of knowledge, the other just requires enough scientific evidence (in the LINK above). Remember DDT?

[Taraz]

Phil,

All the studies that I've looked at on that site so far report correlation and not causation. It could easily be the case that people who will develop schizophrenia are more likely to become regular smokers early in life. It's equally likely that people with mental illnesses self-medicate with pot.

Also, the studies specifically say that they haven't shown a correlation with adult marijuana use, so you can go ahead and smoke now that you're all grown up [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[Rduke55]

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Regarding toxoplasmosis and THC - I'm an idiot, there's some evidence suggesting LSD like compounds in people affected. See here: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060127.html

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Wow, that's pretty silly. Did you read this line?

"A word of caution: our authors' impressive theoretical edifice is built on some pretty thin evidence."

Let me see if I got this straight. I cite papers in peer reviewed scientific journals on amphetamine toxicity (and I'm pretty sure I did previously on marijuana's lack of or minimal long-term effects) and you ignore them. But you read something in The Straight Dope or a non-peer reviewed website and you're all "See jerk? Proof!"

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But I still don't see decent evidence of short term use in normal doses being bad for the brain.

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Where are you looking? Did you see Schmued's paper I linked? Or of all the ones saying meth is directly neurotoxic where most drugs are only neurotoxic in chronic abusers?

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I know exactly what amphetamines do when taken.

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Can you enlighten us? Wait, didn't you say a few posts above that we really don't know how the brain works? Or is that only for weed?

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I am absolutely saying that. Here's the link I posted above, read the damn thing if you want to continue talking about this. It links to plenty of journal articles, which are worth reading. http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevent...reetdrugs.html

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What about the journal articles I linked to?
Also, from a cursory examination, I think Taraz is right on about correlation, self-medication, and adult use etc.
IIRC he's a neuroscientist as well.
Also, in a few of those papers that I read where they are trying to address the confounds they have small sample sizes (to be fair though they state this in the paper itself) etc.

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Everyone knows it.

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Except the people researching it I guess.

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Remember DDT?

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What specifically about DDT are you talking about?

[Phil153]

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Regarding toxoplasmosis and THC - I'm an idiot, there's some evidence suggesting LSD like compounds in people affected. See here: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/060127.html

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Wow, that's pretty silly. Did you read this line?

"A word of caution: our authors' impressive theoretical edifice is built on some pretty thin evidence."

Let me see if I got this straight. I cite papers in peer reviewed scientific journals on amphetamine toxicity (and I'm pretty sure I did previously on marijuana's lack of or minimal long-term effects) and you ignore them. But you read something in The Straight Dope or a non-peer reviewed website and you're all "See jerk? Proof!"

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What? You've completely misunderstood the dialog here. Go back and reread. I said I read that a THC like compound was produced by these parasites. Above I admit my mistake and show the source where I got the idea from. Stay off the reefers please.

Regarding peer reviewed articles, do you want me to specifically link the ones in that article? They're solid studies from what I've read.

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But I still don't see decent evidence of short term use in normal doses being bad for the brain.

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Where are you looking? Did you see Schmued's paper I linked? Or of all the ones saying meth is directly neurotoxic where most drugs are only neurotoxic in chronic abusers?

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I'm talking about noticable negative effects. For example, alcohol a is neurotoxin, even in "safe" amounts, but you won't notice it in people who have a wine now and then. I'm not debating whether it's neurotoxic or not.

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I know exactly what amphetamines do when taken.

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Can you enlighten us? Wait, didn't you say a few posts above that we really don't know how the brain works? Or is that only for weed?

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You're really being an idiot here. I'm responding the m_theory's comments, who thinks I didn't realize that amphetamines are stimulants. I'm not talking about how they work in the brain.

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I am absolutely saying that. Here's the link I posted above, read the damn thing if you want to continue talking about this. It links to plenty of journal articles, which are worth reading. http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevent...reetdrugs.html

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What about the journal articles I linked to?
Also, from a cursory examination, I think Taraz is right on about correlation, self-medication, and adult use etc.
IIRC he's a neuroscientist as well.
Also, in a few of those papers that I read where they are trying to address the confounds they have small sample sizes (to be fair though they state this in the paper itself) etc.

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I can only access two of the studies you linked to, and they talk only about meth. So I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Regarding the evidence, if you can't see it from studies in the link I gave, I guess I'll have to explicitly write out my case. To me, after reviewing those studies, the evidence is very clear that marijuana is having a significant effect.

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Everyone knows it.

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Except the people researching it I guess.

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This is just a dumb comment. Clearly, many researchers believe the THC-schizophrenia link. And I was referring to mental health services; you know, the people who deal with this illness in the real world.

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Remember DDT?

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What specifically about DDT are you talking about?

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The hilarity of scientists claiming they know something isn't harmful without comprehensive knowledge of the biology in question, or comprehensive studies showing nil effect.

[Taraz]

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Also, from a cursory examination, I think Taraz is right on about correlation, self-medication, and adult use etc.
IIRC he's a neuroscientist as well.

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Not yet, but I'm starting grad school next year to get a PhD in psychology/neuroscience/cognitive science (depending on where I decide to go).