22 and KJ UTG, shorthanded

[CASSHERN]

In his book, PG recommends raising UTG with KJ in shorthanded, but not with 22. In fact he doesn't play 22 at all UTG, even in shorthanded. His book has no advanced theories per say, so it certainly not targeted to HSNL players. So, he recomments SSNL players to raise with KJ UTG ...

In another post, someone even suggested the contrary ... raising with 22 but not with KJ. And most replies seemed to agree with him.

I'd like your opinions ...

Shorthanded UTG, do you raise your small PP ?? ......Why ?
What about hands like KJ ? ........Why ?

IF YOU VOTE, PLEASE ALSO POST A REPLY to explain your action ...

[Dan Bitel]

Raise with 22, and if you don't want to do that, then at least limp it

I muck KJo, but raise KJs

[homeslice]

I raise 22, KJs

50/50 KJo

[CappyAA]

KJo is a fold 99% of the time to me. I raise 22 almost all the time as well as KJs UTG. I will never limp KJs UTG, so if I have tough players to act after me with an affinity for 3-betting, I may just fold. With 22, I will limp if nothing else, but not often.

[Albert Moulton]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise with 22, and if you don't want to do that, then at least limp it

I muck KJo, but raise KJs

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with this post. I'd hate to muck 22 if the stacks are 50BB or deeper because of it's potential for flopping a set. KJo is risky since it is so easily dominated and you'll be out of position post flop. KJs isn't much better than KJo, but it has more possibilities for decent semi-bluffs on any flop with 1 or 2 spades that it is certainly better off post-flop much of the time than KJo. Granted, a backdoor flush draw isn't much, but at least it's better than nothing when you make a cb and get called.

[jbird]

I raise 22 50% of the time and limp it the other 50%.

KJo also goes in the muck for me, KJs is a raise unless there is something special about the table.

[CASSHERN]

Why do you raise with 22 if it's to flop a set ? It seems EV-, no ? Why don't you try to see the flop for as cheap as possible ?

Also, what is the advantage of raising oop with KJs ? You just build a big pot, with a medium hand, oop ?

I'm not saying these are wrong ... I'm just trying to understand ...

[Dan Bitel]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you raise with 22 if it's to flop a set ? It seems EV-, no ? Why don't you try to see the flop for as cheap as possible ?

Also, what is the advantage of raising oop with KJs ? You just build a big pot, with a medium hand, oop ?

I'm not saying these are wrong ... I'm just trying to understand ...

[/ QUOTE ]

raise 22 to win the blinds/FE on teh flop/build a pot for when we hit

raise KJs b/c I think I can outplay my opponents with it postflop and might even have an eqity edge over their calling ranges preflop. Again cbets take down most flops. Limping with it is really bad, much worse than limping with 22 as you hardly ever flop big, and if you hit TP, you're in a tricky spot, but if you limp/call 22 preflop, if you hit, you know you're good

[TNUC]

limp 22 any position , sometimes raise KJo mostly fold. always raise KJsuited. I see no value in raising 22 can put u in awkward positions that you dont need to be in

[Jouster777]

I may have missed something but I just read this whole thread and Albert is the only one that mentioned stack sizes. No one mentioned reads on the table or hero's usual image. There are times a will raise or limp 22 (I usually limp) but most in this thread suggest a standard approach.

More importantly, raising depends on the value of taking down a cbet/taking initiative outweighing screwing up our implied odds preflop. That's a semi-complicated calculation and I suspect its thrown out as gospel more often than it should be.

What's the point of this post?...We should discuss the factors going into the decision and if there is a "default" course of action what kind of conditions would make us abandon that default.