25nl: WTF???

[Supwithbates]

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does no one seem to believe this bet makes his range primarily full of air, fds or 46/56?

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I shove and expect to be ahead a good % when called.

Please please please never flatcall, calling this flop is throwing money out the window. If you think he's going to get this out of line on the flop with a worse holding, then he's going to get out of line on the turn too. Calling to c/f if we miss turn is horrible; if we're convinced we're behind, then we should fold, otherwise shove.

[bravos1]

Some of you are saying raise now and get it all in as soon as possible, yet say that a call is gross.. I don't get it?

If you have any FE now and feel you are likely ahead, then just calling and jamming the turn should be fine as well. Really, what scare cards are there for you? If he has an over pair (like 88 or whatever), there are a bunch for him, not to mention that if we do decide to wait and raise the turn, it makes our hand look even stronger and we'd probably gain more FE.

Also I think our implieds are bigger than what most people seem to think. Yes, if a 2 hits, he is gonna shut down because we can easily have an Ace... but if a 7 hits, do you really think he is slowing down or not stacking off if that was his intent? I mean, really, how many sixes can we be holding here?

Right now, my NL is still kinda crappy..lol, but I still think I fold here. In limit it is an easy raise, but in limit we are not playing for stacks.

I really hate minraises, but how would a minraise be here? We can take a free card if we miss, still keep the pot relatively small and make a decision on the river if we miss again.

[msbviper]

Since it's deep, I think you have to fold. If you call and the straight card comes, it will be obvious and he may get away from his over pair.

If we are less deep (say 100bb), would most people like a push on the flop?

[Supwithbates]

Shoving flop allows us to commit our money while we still have a great deal of equity. The only other option would be to fold, and the reasoning behind a fold would be that 1) we're fairly certain we're behind, and 2) there is little chance that he is folding any hand that currently beats us. However, given that our opponent is frequently out of line, I lean towards shoving over folding because I honestly can envision villain having AK here.

Calling this flop is absolutely horrible, regardless of your intent on the turn.
Folding this flop is standard against 99% of villains, but in this instance I shove.\

Matrix's post is spot on

[Pokey]

Raising here looks VERY unpleasant to me. Villain's raise looks big, but it leaves a tremendous amount of money behind -- too much to get all-in on the flop. Since our raise can't put us all-in, and since we're unlikely to want to push the turn, we probably shouldn't commit more cash now. The "hope he reraises so we can get all-in" line of argument seems insane to me: why on earth would we "hope" that villain makes the one play that means we're probably in a world of hurt right now? Especially since it will force us to commit our entire 200BB stack if it happens?

To my mind, the only legitimate options are folding and smooth-calling.

Reasons to fold:

- We know nothing about villain's range.
- If we miss, villain is likely to blow us off our hand on the turn.
- Villain might be making a single bluff at the pot -- if we hit, villain might check/fold, especially if we hit our deuce.
- We might improve to a second-best hand that ties us in to losing a 200 BB stack.
- Our pot odds are abyssmal.
- There is still a player to act behind us.
- Our hand is weak enough that it should be considered nothing but a drawing hand.

Reasons to call:
- We have position: if villain is bluffing, he might easily check/fold the turn, giving us a nice lil' payoff.
- Villain won't put us on this hand, and if we hit we could get paid handsomely with our winner, ideally the full 200 BBs.
- We are deep as hell, and that makes the potential implied odds extraordinarily strong.
- Our call could buy us all the diamonds as bluff cards.

To my mind, the key points are (1) we know nothing about villain and (2) we have position. One argues strongly for folding and the other argues strongly for calling. Given that our opponent is crazy I'm willing to entertain the notion that we're ahead of his range, or perhaps just slightly behind, but I simply have no idea. I can't put it past villain to have 76, or 55, or A3, or Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], or any other random hand. That flop bet is big, but unfortunately crazy-aggro opponents come in two primary flavors: the kind that overbets when scared and the kind that abuses his loosey-goosey image to overbet with monsters and expecting to get paid off. So now we're back to #1, we don't know what this guy is all about.

Ultimately, my decision comes down to stack sizes. Not just mine and UTG's, but also SB, BB, and MP. There are four opponents at this table with over 160 BBs. Right now I've got over 200 BBs and I'm covered in two spots. If I get stacked my stack size drops down to 100 BBs, which denies me the leverage to get paid off REALLY handsomely when I hit a true monster down the road. In other words, for metagame purposes my stack being twice the maximum allowable buyin has a potential value to it, and I don't want to risk that potential value on a longshot draw, especially since I could be drawing even thinner than I think.

Ultimately I sigh heavily and fold, hoping to leverage my gigantic stack to exploit one of my many deep-stacked and incompetent opponents and get a true payday on a 400+ BB pot when I've got a hand worth backing.

If villain's raise had been any smaller, this would be an call. If I knew villain better, this could be a call. If my draw was to the nuts, this could be a call. If my stack were a little bit bigger, this could be a call. If the rest of the table had 100 BBs or less, this could be a call. As it stands there's a perfect storm that makes this, to my mind, a thin fold. I don't fault anybody who says to call this; I just think folding is slightly better when taking EVERYTHING into account.

[terencetsao]

i think i would fold..
probably a fold > raise > call in my mind..
i really hate calling there

[OSUGreg1983]

wtf is the max buy in for .25 BB on Absolute? Never seen a 6 max table this deep for 25NL. 99.9% of the time you get hit and runners where 5 players rarely run this deep, ever, at least on Stars.

As for the hand, fold. Bottom line is that you're only invested $1.25 here. No point in proving who's tool is bigger with an extremely vulnerable hand. Equity flew out the window as soon as villian overbet 2x the pot.

Let's just pick a better spot. You can easily stack player's like this, but they will stack you SOOO fast in spots like this. Wait until you have a hand where there aren't a dozen+ hands that beat you and stack his ass then.

[Unknown Soldier]

oop missed stacks, 100bb deep definite raise.

i call here. your equity is too good to fold. kinda marginal though, i don't hate folding, i don't think raising is terrible either tbh. This could be a raise or a fold depending on his specific tendencies though, the reads aren't very specific in op, but just going off them i'd call.

[bozzer]

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oop missed stacks, 100bb deep definite raise.

i call here. your equity is too good to fold. (kinda marginal though, i don't hate folding, i don't think raising is terrible either tbh)

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i just don't see our hand having much s/d value - how many more 2x pot bets are you willing to call?

and if we can't get to s/d with hand that might or might not be good we are just looking at an 8 out draw with terrible pot odds and poor implied odds (because the draw is obvious).

[Unknown Soldier]

im folding a large turn bet ui. our equity at this point vs his range is more then enough to continue. It falls dramatically on the turn though.


he could well use our outs to bluff/pay us off anyway because he's retarded/slow down etc. stuff like that all makes it more of a call too and we have alot of money behind.


probably a 10-out draw if we are behind.