finaltablehelp.com

[applejuicekid]

Even if only half the people paid him it could still be well worth his while.

[applejuicekid]

GB2005,

Do you think this ethical? I'm not trying to mock you. I was just wondering if you felt that it was unethical but don't care or that you find this practice perfectly acceptable (and if so, why).

[N 82 50 24]

I haven't yet put an ad for this site on thepokerdb, although I did initially agree to do that provided that Stars explicitly says that it's okay. The only reason the word has gotten out is because GB2005 put up the avatar on Stars a little bit too quickly for my liking. The site is still under development in a few ways. Obviously, a number of factors would have to be met... like GB2005 can't still be in the tournament. Maybe it's not okay if he played and was eliminated, I'm not sure. In my mind, it's going to be up to what Stars says. If they say no, then the site won't be affiliated with the db in any way. If they say it's okay under certain circumstances, then I will at least give it a shot as being an advertiser on the db provided that GB2005 only provides help under the allowed circumstances.

And also, if you don't think he's a good player or you don't like him, that's okay. I don't know him well, but he's always been nice to me and he was nice when I met him at the PCA. And if inexperienced players are interested in this service, then I think you should let them feel free to use it PROVIDED that Stars says it's officially okay. It's going to come down to what Lee & Co say about it and a response is pending.

[KingMedicine]

stars' decision, if approving this sort of behavior, will change the face of online MTT poker as we know it.

other people will open their own similar businesses and undercut each other where eventually it might be worth it (once the range of payment is 2-3% of the take) to consult with someone on various hands. a final table could end up being a couple solo guys playing with 8 teams of 2.

if lee/stars condones these actions, final tables will, of course, be much more difficult than before, which will take away profit from MTTers who make their living playing.

[KingMedicine]

[ QUOTE ]
stars' decision, if approving this sort of behavior, will change the face of online MTT poker as we know it.

other people will open their own similar businesses and undercut each other where eventually it might be worth it (once the range of payment is 2-3% of the take) to consult with someone on various hands. a final table could end up being a couple solo guys playing with 8 teams of 2.

if lee/stars condones these actions, final tables will, of course, be much more difficult than before, which will take away profit from MTTers who make their living playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

id like to add that stars has a history of making the right decision, so i doubt they'll OK this behavior, but it appears they did approve the icon.

[N 82 50 24]

[ QUOTE ]
stars' decision, if approving this sort of behavior, will change the face of online MTT poker as we know it.

other people will open their own similar businesses and undercut each other where eventually it might be worth it (once the range of payment is 2-3% of the take) to consult with someone on various hands. a final table could end up being a couple solo guys playing with 8 teams of 2.

if lee/stars condones these actions, final tables will, of course, be much more difficult than before, which will take away profit from MTTers who make their living playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's definitely a possibility, but we should acknowledge that Lee said it's okay to have more than one person to a hand in online poker provided that people aren't sitting at the same table. Therefore, people have inferred that helping someone through a final table is okay provided that the person isn't at the same final table (that's obviously not okay). And now, people are charging to provide final table support -- from what I understand, it already happens with people from realpokertraining, pokermentors and private tutoring. Lee needs to say if it's okay or not, but it's been implied that it's okay by allowing more than one person to a hand. He also needs to say what the conditions are for providing help. Let's say I bust out 5467/5900 in the Sunday tournament, then I take a nap and help the winning from 60 people on. Is that okay with Stars? As of now, I don't know. But I'm curious to find out what they say.

[Annulus]

I knew this type of crap has been going on for awhile, they sometimes call it ghosting or whatever. But for you to publicly offer this service is somewhat shocking to me. You are basically saying if Lee allows me to commit this crime, then I will. I hope Lee is not this stupid. I guess it's all about making dollars in the end and who gives a rats ass about integrity. Oh well.

[A_PLUS]

I think this is such a bad idea. I dont have a personal problem with anyone doing it. If stars allows it, there is no reason why someone should be thought off in a crooked way for doing it.

My problem with it, is that is very short sited in a business sense. I was playing a live event last week, and the topic of internet poker came up. There were a few players who said they would never play, b/c they suspected wide spread collusion, etc. They didnt even know about the ZJ/JJ fiasco yet. After learning about that, I am convinced we have 3 more people who will never play online. Multiply conversations like this out a few thousand times. You see my point.

One of the thinks that holds back the growth of online poker (which is scary, b/c it has exploded so much), is the idea that you can't get a fair shake. Wether it be 'rigged' sites, collusion, or Finaltablehelp.com. It looks very bad to the marginal player. Obviously, I worry about the government taking steps to criminilize the game. Sensationalistic 'unfairness' stories are just the ammo they need to garner support from voters who are on the fence.

Meh...who knows, keeping online poker 'real' in a brick and morter sense, may be impossible anyway. Their is just too much money involved. But I will bet anyone that this service wont last long in the 'allowed' department on pokerstars. It just looks to bad to the average player that they depend on. I mean, who wants to either pay an additional rake (by using a service), or face a final table of players getting help from top pros? Especially when you dont know it is them.

Put it this way. If this type of service became the norm. Meaning every final table had 3-4 services working on it. I could picture myself staying away from online tournaments all together. That may be an unlikely scenario, but I am not your average player either.

I want to reiterate, that I have no personal problems with GB2005, Nat, etc. who want to do this. I think you are perfectly within your rights to do so. I just hope you reconsider.

[sirio11]

Nat,

I understand you want to do everything by the rules and that's ok.

But in a personal level; do you think these sites are good for online poker?

[GB2005**]

First of all, yes I am interested in making money. I will be very upfront, but i also want to help people out.

And you question the fact I am publically offering this service. Do you think it is better that someone does it quietly? There should not be any difference.

Regardless, I respect stars and very much care about the rules and integrity of poker. If sites say this service is not okay, i tip my hat and do not offer this service. But i would like to make it very clear people are already offering this service. They have been for a while. I am just openly offering this service.

Thanks, Gary, GB2005