Spots we rarely think about

[thedustbustr]

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You didn't mention one important fact that is that 22 will flop a monster 1/8 times.

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yes, I did. reread. from a 6m perspective, as was strongly established in a dbitel post a while ago, you shouldnt be calling 3bets with pps for set value. I dont see how this changes HU.

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If they start 3-betting all broadways or some such range OOP,

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are you saying you DONT 3bet, at the minimum, Ax broadway? what DO you 3bet then?

if he 3bets good broadways, and you fold 22 to a 3bet as i contend you should, that means that if he just calls he has QT or 89 type hands. you arent going to play a big pot against 89 that made mid pair. nor are you going to know if he actually made a pair, or if he will fold it, or if he will bluff if he doesnt, etc...

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that is very exploitable. You might start losing a bit of EV with 22, but you gain EV with other hands in your range.

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saying a play is exploitable is a copout. how exactly will you exploit it? how exactly does that affect how 22 fares against their range? I think that in your average aggro HU match, the fish are going to be so sick of [censored] cards, that when they see KQo they're gonna be like OMG THE NUTS and 3bomb.

if indeed playing 22 is -EV then folding 44- for the 3 in 221 times that it is dealt isnt going to affect the metagame.

(evg, if you disagree about folding pps to a 3bet, read dbitels post in SSNL titled 'PSA: THESE ARE THE IMPLIED ODDS YOU NEED TO FLOP A SET' or something similar, and then make an intelligent criticism. or dont.)

[thedustbustr]

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a pair HU is the nuts, regardless of a 3bet

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if you say so.

here, i linked dbitel's thread to make sure you see it.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

[Piece of Cake]

How light will he call a triple barrel? Why not just triple barrel bluff this villain every time.

[blackize]

The thing is that people stack off much much much lighter HU than in a 6max game. dbitels post wasn't made with a HU game in mind.

[BobboFitos]

check

[BobboFitos]

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while we're thinking about stuff we do automatically...

lets think about why we're playing preflop. i'm considering the option of folding it. on the button. heads up.

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lol! you are funny.

[BobboFitos]

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ak and 22 aren't vlue betting, they are bluffing...

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Nope. No worse hand will fold in either case Bets are for protection.

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interestingly, along the lines about concepts people dont think about, you are mistaken here Isura. A bluff can still be a bluff even when "no better hands fold" (which is what you meant)

So, the 22 is actually a bluff on the flop. And that's why it's a bad bluff. And why I'd check the flop.

In <u>NLH:BB</u> I classify this as both a type 5 flop and also a check under the guise of equity advantage. You are not folding to ANY turn, and how you proceed depends exactly on what falls and opponent does. What this means is: You get to play poker! Wow, Poker can be fun! Poker is not "exactly" mechanical and robotic! Yay.

In fact, I think cbetting this board too wide is a small leak, although unadulterated aggression heads up is rarely a BIG leak. (whereas unadulterated passivity, so to speak, is)

[Dire]

I would almost always bet this. You easily get called by worse here, especially against villains like this. 6x, flush draws, ace high especially of the suit, overcards, straight draws, gutshot+ type hands like 9Q, etc.. Gotta play the turn carefully though or it becomes spew.

[BobboFitos]

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I would almost always bet this. You easily get called by worse here, especially against villains like this. 6x, flush draws, ace high especially of the suit, overcards, straight draws, gutshot+ type hands like 9Q, etc..

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again, this is misapplication of both the FTOP and poker 101. FTOP says if you know what they had, would you do the same thing, poker 101 says if we have the best of it we should bet. (small digression, these two things are different: Do you see how?) Anyway, the main point of making a bet you think will be called is not "getting called by worse" (typically worse made hands, since made &gt; made is where alot of your equity return will come from) but rather how your equity edge fares, and incidentally, ignoring pot size since, and bare with this math, they are incorrect when they have say 0% equity to 30% equity but then 30% to 50% they are correct, and then past 51% is where the bettor is making a bad bet. So, again, 22 HU vs this opponent type when called even by a loose you're never in the first "schism" of value betting (the technical first 30% which should be auto bets by everyone, the marginal area is the next 20%, followed by going beyond 51%, where you're reaching for folding equity but NOT value)

also, in the rare event you do get called "BY WORSE" remember that "worse on the flop" is a relative term, since the "best hand" on the flop does NOT necessarily equate to the MOST equity, which is BY FAR the most important facet of a hand. (obviously, more important in omaha, but certainly very relevant to holdem)

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Gotta play the turn carefully though or it becomes spew.

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edited to add this, certainly this part of the hand is essential. We cannot assume the hand ends on the flop, because if that is the case, a bet is more objectively viewed as superior or inferior. In any event, the fact that playing the turn IS difficult WHEN called, does shade the flop toward being checked.

[fitnessfreak]

geez, i really hope i never have to play on bobbo's tables! thx for the input though, v insightful [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]