Sumo-interesting QQ hand

[Godfather80]

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Umm... where do you see what two cards villain flipped over? I can't find the results of this hand anywhere in this thread.

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8th post

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Thanks. Good win for OP. Probably happens 5%-10% of the time in this situation.

[Ya_Fooboo]

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First, it's "results oriented." Results don't matter.

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Obv it's results orientated, that's the only way we'll know isn't it? Results do matter to your question of "What's the difference..." and the answer of "nothing" because obviously there is if he is calling an AI w/KJ and the tighty is folding TT.

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Second, your answer implies that somehow, when two players raise 5.2% of their hands, the "bad" player raises worse hands than the "good" player. That can't be right.

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I believe it's right in this spot and this is definatly not a usual spot where I would apply his 5.2%, I'm applying that he's likely an awful player wanting action with his 46%vpip.

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"the difference between the average hand raised by a 46/5.2 and a 16/5.2"

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i don't see where i can be quoted saying this. as i said above in this instance i believe that the 46 is a more useful number than the 5.2.

[Godfather80]

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First, it's "results oriented." Results don't matter.

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Obv it's results orientated, that's the only way we'll know isn't it? Results do matter to your question of "What's the difference..." and the answer of "nothing" because obviously there is if he is calling an AI w/KJ and the tighty is folding TT.


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Thinking like this will leave you broke. The way we "know" what the best line is in a given situation is by examining the situation carefully to determine the best course of action in the long run.

Losing plays overall don't lose money every time, just a majority of the time. Your play is a losing play.

[Ya_Fooboo]

I still don't see why. Tell me why it's a losing play.

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But, they DO NOT alleviate their boredom by limp reraising with mediocre hands (especially not when they're not particularly aggressive to begin with).


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Really? They just "DO NOT" EVER IN THEIR LIFE DO THIS. I guess this is just an isolated once in a lifetime thing that isn't suppose to happen.?

[Pokey]

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Really? They just "DO NOT" EVER IN THEIR LIFE DO THIS. I guess this is just an isolated once in a lifetime thing that isn't suppose to happen.?

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Godfather exaggerated for emphasis. The key is that when you see this particular play, you should probably assign a very low probability to "random bluff" and a very high probability to "great cards." Passive players don't usually pull this kind of crap; when you see big limp-raises, it's probably best (for your bankroll, that is) to assume he's got the goods.

[Godfather80]

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I still don't see why. Tell me why it's a losing play.

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But, they DO NOT alleviate their boredom by limp reraising with mediocre hands (especially not when they're not particularly aggressive to begin with).


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Really? They just "DO NOT" EVER IN THEIR LIFE DO THIS. I guess this is just an isolated once in a lifetime thing that isn't suppose to happen.?

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In short, because 90% of the time your raise folds out all worse hands and is instantly called by all better hands. You don't make money in the long run with plays like these. There's no other way to put it.

[Pokey]

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Although a raise pf from these players may mean the same to us a limp reraise into a huge field means very different things. Just a thought.

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...and an interesting thought, at that.

Do you think this is true? As I was writing my original statement, I began to wonder how much this mattered. Let me ask the following questions of the forum:

1. You have a tighty-whitey with VPIP 7% and PFR 4%, and you have a badonk-a-donk with VPIP 87% and PFR 4%. If both were to raise from UTG, would you put both on the same hand ranges? In other words, does a tighty-whitey who raises 4% of hands preflop raise the SAME 4% of hands as a badonk-a-donk who raises 4% of hands preflop?

2. Given two players of different quality but with the same preflop raising percentage, will they typically have relatively similar limp-raising hands, or are those relatively different as well?

Traditionally, I've just assumed that players had almost two separate categories: preflop raising hands and preflop limping hands. A player with a huge VPIP but tiny PFR will have a vast holding range when they limp but a raise from that player still implies to me a strong premium hand. I've never seen a reason to think that reraising or limp-reraising or other preflop aggression would behave differently, and I've always used their PFR% as an indication of that hand's strength, not their relative looseness for limping. Is this a mistake?

[swedeD]

Well, I where a little to fast with my answer. UTG's reraise wasn't that big considering the potsize. This changes things a lot.

But if the pot would have been say $8-$10, and UTG with a vpip of 40-50% raises more then twice the pot, I would rather put him on a medium pair or an Ace with decent kicker and that he is tired of mine and others raises. This, of course, depends on how active and aggressive I have been and how aggressive the table are. A player that lacks patience will sooner or later do this kind of over-aggressive mistakes. (At least this is mine experience at NL100.)