Steve Badger's advice

[pete fabrizio]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you have gotten more off-track here? The part of the advice where Badger suggests LRRing AAxx when short is the only part of the advice that most people here wouldn't have a problem with. That's completely standard. The reason people don't like his advice is the way he advocates playing every hand but AA, namely limping and folding to a raise. He basically states that it's impossible to play hands profitably out of position.

Now, the thing about this strategy is that there's a maximum yield to it. It's zero. Badger himself states that "the main reason to play hands out of position is to get other people to play hands out of position". This means, he only ever plays them for metagame reasons and doesn't even believe that his strategy is profitable from those positions; just that it loses less than other people's strategies.

Well, guess what, tons of us out there are profiting from early position. Therefore, our strategy is better than what Badger himself says is the best he can hope for. Therefore, there's no debate. The strategy of playing 15-20% of your hands by limp-calling or open-raising is better than Badger's strategy.

I was going to try to prove this using my database, but I don't have a very large sample of FR hands, and then when I tried to make an analogous point about hands from the blinds, I found PokerEV's sorting capacities woefully inadequate. You can sort by how many seats off the button you are, but not by whether you're a blind or not, so the only way to get enough data to be relevant would be to manually compile the number of BB's won or lost from each position with each number of players at the table by working backwards from hands and BB/100 and then recompiling and the whole thing seemed like a little more work than I was up to tonight.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can do this in Pokertracker easily. On the General Info. tab click "Filters..." and Big Blind/Small Blind are options. Then click OK and look at the Totals in the "Starting Hands" frame. You can make do more interesting filters too. E.g., as I posted in this or some other thread, I tested whether or not raising out of the small blind is profitable for me. It is.

[pete fabrizio]

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[ QUOTE ]
a solid player who understands the game and has deep chips will eat up anybody from any position with AAKK.

[/ QUOTE ] Not if Pete Fabrizio is up against me. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can't win money against me with AAKK, even out of position, you're not a very good player.

[holdemsucks]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason people don't like his advice is the way he advocates playing every hand but AA, namely limping and folding to a raise

[/ QUOTE ] Incorrect. Please read: If the chips are deep you should be limp/fold almost everything

[holdemsucks]

First you said: [ QUOTE ]
This means, he only ever plays them for metagame reasons and doesn't even believe that his strategy is profitable from those positions; just that it loses less than other people's strategies.

[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't this imply that your strategy loses more?

[chucky]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you have gotten more off-track here? The part of the advice where Badger suggests LRRing AAxx when short is the only part of the advice that most people here wouldn't have a problem with. That's completely standard. The reason people don't like his advice is the way he advocates playing every hand but AA, namely limping and folding to a raise. He basically states that it's impossible to play hands profitably out of position.

Now, the thing about this strategy is that there's a maximum yield to it. It's zero. Badger himself states that "the main reason to play hands out of position is to get other people to play hands out of position". This means, he only ever plays them for metagame reasons and doesn't even believe that his strategy is profitable from those positions; just that it loses less than other people's strategies.

Well, guess what, tons of us out there are profiting from early position. Therefore, our strategy is better than what Badger himself says is the best he can hope for. Therefore, there's no debate. The strategy of playing 15-20% of your hands by limp-calling or open-raising is better than Badger's strategy.

I was going to try to prove this using my database, but I don't have a very large sample of FR hands, and then when I tried to make an analogous point about hands from the blinds, I found PokerEV's sorting capacities woefully inadequate. You can sort by how many seats off the button you are, but not by whether you're a blind or not, so the only way to get enough data to be relevant would be to manually compile the number of BB's won or lost from each position with each number of players at the table by working backwards from hands and BB/100 and then recompiling and the whole thing seemed like a little more work than I was up to tonight.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point wasn't that LRR with aces is bad, rather than LRR with aces wont necessarily make every flop an automatic play from early position. It seemed like the flow of the article was that folding in early position when faced with a raise is appropriate because unless you can minimize post flop strategy by LRR aces (and only aces) it is nearly impossible to outplay someone when you are OOP. This clearly is not true.

[holdemsucks]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

Quote:
a solid player who understands the game and has deep chips will eat up anybody from any position with AAKK.

Not if Pete Fabrizio is up against me.



If you can't win money against me with AAKK, even out of position, you're not a very good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you think you can determine whether one is a 'very good player' or not by seeing how they play AAKK? Good luck

[thisnamedoesntfi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

Quote:
a solid player who understands the game and has deep chips will eat up anybody from any position with AAKK.

Not if Pete Fabrizio is up against me.



If you can't win money against me with AAKK, even out of position, you're not a very good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you think you can determine whether one is a 'very good player' or not by seeing how they play AAKK? Good luck

[/ QUOTE ]
Please stop trying to argue with people that do this for their living, while you play playmoney PLO. Just think about how fing retarded that makes your argument. You come from a knowledge base that is far too shallow. Please............stop.

[iggymcfly]

[ QUOTE ]
First you said: [ QUOTE ]
This means, he only ever plays them for metagame reasons and doesn't even believe that his strategy is profitable from those positions; just that it loses less than other people's strategies.

[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't this imply that your strategy loses more?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, if he was right. The fact that it doesn't lose more is what proves him wrong. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

[iggymcfly]

[ QUOTE ]
You can do this in Pokertracker easily. On the General Info. tab click "Filters..." and Big Blind/Small Blind are options. Then click OK and look at the Totals in the "Starting Hands" frame. You can make do more interesting filters too. E.g., as I posted in this or some other thread, I tested whether or not raising out of the small blind is profitable for me. It is.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I just did this. I sorted it by hands with a minimum of 3 players where I was in one of the blinds and someone tried to steal against me. Something seems off here as adding "steal attempted and called or reraised" takes the # of hands available from 27,592 to 1,732 which isn't much more than I got for one of my small subcategories earlier when looking at things in PokerEV.

Still, if the numbers are right, not only do I profit compared to folding these hands, I actually show a profit outright with the blind money included. According to PTO (over the admittedly small sample), I'm averaging 0.13 PTBB/hand (or 13 PTBB/100) when someone raises one of my blinds and I choose to play.

Actually, I think I figured out why this is filtering so many hands. "Attempt to steal" means the first one in the pot raised me and throws out the hands where someone raised after a limp. I still can't get the exact filter I want which is basically "in the blind", "any player raises PF", "exclude AA", "call or reraise for me PF". Still though, I think the general point gets across that I'm obviously making money out of position and would be giving away a ton of value if I attempted to play Badger's PF strategy of throwing everything away that I might have to play OOP.

FWIW, I was playing around with the filters earlier and found out that I'm also making a profit with hands that I raise to more than 5 BB from the blinds (so mainly 3-bets), even if I exclude AAxx from the list. That was something where I always kind of wondered if I was throwing away money and I'm glad to see that it's been profitable.

[holdemsucks]

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The strategy of playing 15-20% of your hands by limp-calling or open-raising is better than Badger's strategy.

[/ QUOTE ] Honestly, I do disagree with some parts of the article. I usually play good hands in early position even against a raise. The thing about 15-20% of your hands. What are some of these hands you guys seem to all play in early position?