unbelievable ignorance

[MarkSummers]

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riddled with contradictions, stuttering language, often incomprehensible logic and mores, notions of the physical world in direct opposition to modern science

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This is not true.

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Very convincing.

[Skidoo]

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Indeed, presumably God thinks the Bible's messages, whatever they might be, are very important. And yet they're relegated to a text from a barely literate age, written from sources decades removed from the principles, cobbled from obvious copies of tales relaying the exploits of prior deities, riddled with contradictions, stuttering language, often incomprehensible logic and mores, notions of the physical world in direct opposition to modern science. Never mind the mistranslations and selective editing, and the multiple editions.

You mean this is the best an all-powerful being can do?

Where the Hell is God's website?

And how can any intellectually honest person say they don't have a problem with all of the above?

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There is no such thing as complete rigor in language. Therefore, a similar endless line of objections can be generated from any text, including your own questions. The meaning of a text does not lie in its incompleteness, but rather in its intended communication.

[Magic_Man]

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To give an example Lev 25:44 says you can possess slaves, etc. 300 years ago - great. Now - not so great. But how to do you work it out?? It's revealed to you and yet you don't own any slaves? Is there a higher law than set out in the bible? Do you have the bollox to try and own slaves given it's against the law nearly everywhere?

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You've either never studied the entire Bible enough to put Leviticus into the correct context in which it exists, or you are reading the Bible with the purpose of picking out flaws and contradictions in Christian beliefs. Either way, you aren't analyzing it accurately.

How much do you know about the slavery described in Leviticus? How is it the same and how is it different than slavery in 19th century America? Or is slavery just slavery and that's the end of it?

What do you know about the Mosaic Law? How much of it applies to Christians today? How much of it does not? Or do Christians just pick and choose the parts they like or the parts that their priests and pastors like?

There isn't an index that says which bits to ignore and which bits to follow? First you have to understand what it is that you are reading, when it was written, to whom, and what the political and cultural context was in the authorship. Any intelligent investigation does this with any piece of literature. Why is the Bible different?

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When I'm learning something, I like the teacher to explain from the ground up - to assume that I know very little about the subject. Can you give a quick summary of how the things you've stated here apply to slavery in Leviticus? Specifically, I'd like to know how the slavery defined there is different. More specifically, I want to reconcile the following quote with my view of what slavery is:

Exodus 21:20-21 (NAS)
"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property. "



Can I get a brief summary of how this type of slavery differs from 19th century slavery, and why it is ok in God's eyes? Please don't think you will offend me by giving the little details that "should be obvious." Pretend I am a naive child that needs to be taught about God's view of slavery. Thanks!

[txag007]

Here's a start:

Don't assume that everything you read in Leviticus is equally applicable to us today. Leviticus is an historical document written to a specific culture in a specific time. There are parts of the book that apply to us, but remember that Leviticus must be taken in context with the entire Bible.

As for slavery under Mosaic Law, one way it was different is that it wasn't permanent. Many people voluntarily sold themselves into slavery as a way to pay off debt.

This isn't everything you asked for, but it is something to get you started.

[Magic_Man]

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Here's a start:

Don't assume that everything you read in Leviticus is equally applicable to us today. Leviticus is an historical document written to a specific culture in a specific time. There are parts of the book that apply to us, but remember that Leviticus must be taken in context with the entire Bible.

As for slavery under Mosaic Law, one way it was different is that it wasn't permanent. Many people voluntarily sold themselves into slavery as a way to pay off debt.

This isn't everything you asked for, but it is something to get you started.

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I don't understand. Isn't Leviticus part of the word of God? Are you saying that God was speaking ONLY to the jews that escaped Egypt and that his rules don't apply to us? How do I know which parts of the bible apply to me and which apply only to "a specific culture in a specific time"? I mean, should I be punished for striking my slaves with rods or not?

[NotReady]

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Can I get a brief summary of how this type of slavery differs from 19th century slavery


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See this previous thread on slavery

Check out the link I gave in my post.

[txag007]

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Isn't Leviticus part of the word of God?

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Yes.

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Are you saying that God was speaking ONLY to the jews that escaped Egypt and that his rules don't apply to us?

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Some of them, yes.

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How do I know which parts of the bible apply to me and which apply only to "a specific culture in a specific time"?

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You study it.

I recognize that your posts are oozing with sarcasm, but anyone who is serious about this issue should read the link in Not Ready's posts. I've read some of it, and it gives a really good detailed explanation of the slavery issue.

[Ben K]

Sorry, didn't realise there was a good reply to one of my posts that I hadn't countered.

It's true I have never studied the bible enough to put various passages into context. I don't even own a bible, although I will change that when I find one that has a solid but bendy cover, is relatively small and has thin pages. I've looked but couldn't decide which version was best. Anyways, that's a different problem.

I think you're right about it being a guide for the times it was written in. However, what you haven't realised is that the bible is now an unneccessary document. This is for a number of reasons:

1. It requires study in order to derive the moral values applicable to today. You can more easily derive the same moral values without the bible.
2. There is no evidence that it is god's word as in we haven't established there is a god for his words to be heard and written down.
3. The stlye of writing is horrendous and unneccessarily so.
4. It's ambiguous. The conclusions from the bible that are currently enacted do not stem from the bible per se, but rather from the fact that the bible justifies almost everything and covers the required conclusions.

So why is the bible still in use? Well we are now be able to determine that an specific claim of god issuing new instructions is true or false, and so the religions are forced to rely on a very old document to keep their religion going. This is because they need the word of god in order to justify their actions as coming from a higher power than themselves else they wouldn't be believed and their source of power and money would dry up.

Do you see that the whole enterprise in all of these threads is defending against criticisms of the natural aspects of religion and about these we can have lots of discussions but eventually we reach the same end. In all cases your whole line in underpinned by the assumption that there is a god. You say that we should apply the standards of research and critical thinking to the bible and other natural points about religion but why have you not done exactly the same with regard to the supernatural aspect?