50k Challenge reopened with higher stakes

[Phil153]

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I know promoting abstinence is a shame isnt it ?

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On the off chance you don't understand luckyme's post...

There's nothing wrong with promoting abstinence, just as there's nothing wrong with promoting sobriety. But telling people they can't use condoms is like telling drug users God doesn't want them to use clean needles.

I'm all for "sobriety" in both cases, but if people aren't going to be sober, then you minimize the harm, not pointlessly compound it.

The other trouble is, married couples are permitted to sex under your bizarre religion, and they're not allowed to use condoms either. Which leads to both overpopulation- a massive problem, leading to much famine and death, but good for the pasty faced boy rapers in the Vatican as it gives them more Catholics - and increased spread of disease.

[Phil153]

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I'm against growing embryos for research, and I'm an atheist. Science has no opinion on what is and isn't human life.

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So, when the doctor signs the death certificate she just flips a coin on the premise that she has no scientific basis for claiming Hortense is dead. And rarely writes, 'this wombat is still alive' instead.

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Actually, the "scientific basis" for deciding what is and isn't dead doesn't really come from any scientific insight, but rather simple experience. Over millions of deaths, we've determined that if someone doesn't respond to certain stimuli, and lacks certain vital signs, they will never become alive again. So we classify them as dead.

The point at which life starts is a value judgment, and not the domain of science. You could easily argue, scientifically, that a baby is less intelligent than the billions of animals we regularly slaughter, is not conscious, nor is it capable of surviving on its own, and therefore should be able to be killed without consequence by the parents until a certain arbitrary age.

Yet although such an idea is strongly supported by evidence, most find that idea abhorrent.

[BluffTHIS!]

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Doug,

Define what you mean by "hold accountable". You just mean the vocal censure of like-minded liberals like yourself? Or something more substantive?

[/ QUOTE ]BluffThis what do you think we should do toward people that believe that killing people that don't follow the same faith as them will secure a place in heaven with 70 some odd virgins? What about people that insist the existence of a soul in a blastula forbids it's use as a mehtod to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of people?

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You answered a question with a question. It's your thread and your assertion so it's on you to define what you mean.

[JayTee]

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I know promoting abstinence is a shame isnt it ?

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People like to [censored]. It's what we do. Although, maybe if we taught Africans to grind online poker we wouldn't have to worry about teaching abstinence.

[JayTee]

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Doug,

Define what you mean by "hold accountable". You just mean the vocal censure of like-minded liberals like yourself? Or something more substantive?

[/ QUOTE ]BluffThis what do you think we should do toward people that believe that killing people that don't follow the same faith as them will secure a place in heaven with 70 some odd virgins? What about people that insist the existence of a soul in a blastula forbids it's use as a mehtod to save the lives of hundreds of thousands of people?

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You answered a question with a question. It's your thread and your assertion so it's on you to define what you mean.

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Bluff,

How about we let the families of dead Africans, who died from AIDS after being told that the use of condoms was in defiance of the creator of the universe, tap the deep pockets of the Vatican cash machine through civil suits. I like that idea of accountability.

[BluffTHIS!]

JayTee,

All such unfortunates had a choice. And despite such catholic church disapproval of condoms, that isnt' likely actually preventing those countries, even majority catholic ones in africa of which there are several, from importing and distributing condoms.

Futhermore it is a myth that the Vatican has deep pockets as to annual cash flow and cash holdings, although they do of course have considerable holdings in historical buildings and art, which are the common patrimony of all members of the church, and not the pope's personal collection.

Also do you know what major african leader opposed anti-AIDS programs? If you answered Nelson Mandela you answered correctly. Only recently has the south african gov't put much emphasis on fighting AIDS.

[luckyme]

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All such unfortunates had a choice. And despite such catholic church disapproval of condoms, that isnt' likely actually preventing those countries, even majority catholic ones in africa of which there are several, from importing and distributing condoms.


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All an irrelevant smokescreen in deciding whether the church and ministers bear culpability in the deaths. It's not like they aren't aware of the results their perversion is causing. That somebody else could do something to counteract their despicable acts does not make them less abhorant.

luckyme

[JayTee]

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Also do you know what major african leader opposed anti-AIDS programs? If you answered Nelson Mandela you answered correctly. Only recently has the south african gov't put much emphasis on fighting AIDS.

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Bluff,

Put away your red herring and let us deal with the issue at hand.

[bills217]

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The scientific view of when life begins is better than the biblical view of at conception.

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Inaccurate in every possible way.

FWIW, I consider my Christianity to have very little to do w/ my feelings on abortion. At least, not any more than any other moral issue. If some event occurred that caused me to become a staunch atheist, the only reason I would no longer be pro-life would be if I decided no moral actions were worth the effort. I imagine I would be very much a utilitarian like hmkpoker. You "moral" atheists baffle me. But that's a different thread.

[luckyme]

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The point at which life starts is a value judgment, and not the domain of science.

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You're confusing "an entity we place value on" and may grant rights to, with the concept of " when life starts". They're not necessarily related and the latter has little solid meaning in any case.

luckyme