Understanding "Small Pot" and "Value Bet" conflict - Page 4

jmxthievez · #31 07-12-2006, 05:13 PM

This topic is so read dependent. I will bet all three streets vs a calling station donk or do any variety of betting options vs another opponent.

I also advocate the idea behind the turn check sometimes against a tricky opponent is that you don't want to bet "something" (you don't know if it's a vbet or you digging your own grave) on the turn and get bluffed off your hand that has showdown value. A tricky opponent can check raise the turn with a draw if he thinks you are weak. You don't want to be blown off your hand (that has showdown value) on the turn by betting and folding to a raise vs a tricky opponent.

MyTurn2Raise · #32 07-12-2006, 05:16 PM

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This topic is so read dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed and I cannot emphasize enough that
everything in no limit is read dependent

There is no magic formula for playing every two cards given the board and number of opponents.

Play the players, not just the cards.

younghov17 · #33 07-12-2006, 05:18 PM

agreed, but when you think your ahead and trying to extract, betting should be your standard play and checking should be your balancing play

jmxthievez · #34 07-13-2006, 12:29 AM

younghov- agreed.

By balancing you mean for the times you check the turn when you didn't hit?

younghov17 · #35 07-13-2006, 01:20 AM

yes, if your frequently checking these situations thinking your getting more value by inducing bluffs then you are costing yoruself money, however checking behind to induce bluffs a small % of the time to balance your play is fine. i stand by my general theory on pot control(again this is not a set in stone rule, there will always be exceptions)

**
generally when your considering whether to bet or check behind 1 important think that should always be on your mind is:

if faced with a good sized riverbet if i check behind on the turn am i going to call

if yes its usually better to bet the turn, if not you should check behind
**

yad · #36 07-13-2006, 01:31 AM

I think this is one of the most frequently misunderstood topics at SSNL.

Jam is right on in this thread.

I have come to realize that pot control and value betting are not really in conflict. The basic thing is: the hands that you are controlling the pot with are not the ones that you are losing value from not value betting aggressively.

The most common way this comes up is when you have a marginal made hand. Say for example AJ on an A94r board. No sane opponent is going to call 3 streets worth of pot-sized value bets with a hand that is worse than yours. The "value" simply isn't there. If you get called down 3 streets, you are losing. There are maybe 2 streets worth of value to be had with this hand. So you play accordingly, perhaps by checking behind the turn to induce a river bluff (or in this case more likely a bet from a weaker made hand as well as the stronger ones), or whatever.

OTOH hand if you have A9 or 99 or 44 on this board, you can value bet more aggressively because hands like AK will pay you off. So with those hands you play a larger pot.

Basically what I am driving at is that typically our opponents will only put in a certain amount of money (call this $Y) with hands that are worse than X. So if we have X, there is no value to be had in bets that grow the pot beyond $Y. That is why we want to control the pot size.

Obviously this all depends on the board, because people will put in more money with both draws made hands on drawy boards, so $Y is higher for a given X.

Vincent · #37 07-13-2006, 03:21 AM

I think I may have found a hand that applies in considering checking the turn, but I'm not sure. Opponent is TAG w/ stats 24/8 over 200 hands. WtS 13.5. AF of 5/2/1.5 
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed)

Hero ($94.50)
SB ($103.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, SB (poster) calls $3.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($9) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $8, SB calls $8.

Turn: ($25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero's action.
 Here's a spot I was really unsure about. Am I betting to protect my hand or am I behind? Am I correct in that this is someplace I want to consider pot control?

younghov17 · #38 07-13-2006, 04:06 AM

this is a good hand to check behind, mainly because you could be dominated. with the a kicker id reccomend a bet here and seriously consider folding if raised, but with qj easy check behind, if the turn brings a diamond and u let him outdraw you just fold. thats the price u have to pay to manage the pot with marginal hands.