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#31
11-13-2007, 06:38 AM
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Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
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omniscience- The capacity to know everything. omnipotent - Having unlimited power, force or authority. pokervintage [/ QUOTE ] Ok, so why do you say: <font color="blue">"No he will not know this." </font> in response to: <font color="green"> If God is omnisentient, then He already knows that Sam will be fatally hit by a bus tomorrow at 2PM. </font> ?? If God has the capacity to know everything, then He should know how and when Sam will die. Seems pretty straight forward to me. 
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#32
11-13-2007, 06:38 AM
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Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
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But I believe it's been well established that the biblical God knows the future. [/ QUOTE ] Ah, but we aren't talking about the biblical God, are we? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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#34
11-13-2007, 06:43 AM
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Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
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[ QUOTE ] omniscience- The capacity to know everything. omnipotent - Having unlimited power, force or authority. pokervintage [/ QUOTE ] Ok, so why do you say: <font color="blue">"No he will not know this." </font> in response to: <font color="green"> If God is omnisentient, then He already knows that Sam will be fatally hit by a bus tomorrow at 2PM. </font> ?? If God has the capacity to know everything, then He should know how and when Sam will die. Seems pretty straight forward to me. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sold on this. We could just claim that god knows everything that _could_ happen (aka. anything since we assume omnipotency) and is free to chose which.
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#35
11-13-2007, 06:47 AM
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Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
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If God knows whether or not Sam will be hit by a bus tomorrow, then He is powerless to change it. Hence, it cannot be omnipotent. If God has the ability to stop Sam from being bit by a bus (or to cause a bus to hit Sam), then He could not have known what was going to happen before hand. Hence, He is not all-knowing. [/ QUOTE ] You obviously are not a gambler. God knows that if an unbiased random event occurs, he, even with his omniscient side, can only predict the probability of it occurring. However, if he wants to, since he is also omnipotent, he can control the elements of a physical event at the macro level and make the bus hit Sam. He also knows that even with his omniscience and omnipotence that he cannot measure (predict) with certainty the position of an electron in an atom. Believe it or not this follows and does not contradict his powers. You see he created the Atom as it is precisely so he could have something to bet on with other gods. pokervintage
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#36
11-13-2007, 07:30 AM
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Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
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<font color="blue"> Well, if god is omnipotent isn't it a given that he already knows everything that _can_ happen and also has the power to change it? </font> Omnipotence is all-powerful. Omniscience is all-knowing. So no, that doesn't follow. If God knows whether or not Sam will be hit by a bus tomorrow, then He is powerless to change it. Hence, it cannot be omnipotent. If God has the ability to stop Sam from being bit by a bus (or to cause a bus to hit Sam), then He could not have known what was going to happen before hand. Hence, He is not all-knowing. [/ QUOTE ] It's probably more to the point that he lets these things happen because it doesn't matter from his point of view. It's a very long view but he can always construct a paradise or hell for Sam depending on his character. Omnibenevolence? Sure, it's a plausible concept but man is not benevolent as a matter of regard. It seems logical that such a powerful being would be all these things, but not necessary. Having the power to change something is redundant. Let everything happen anyway and tinker with the results and solutions later. It's also worthwhile to bear in mind such a being would have a non-linear view of time and can go back and forth at will. But that's just idle speculation. I don't believe such a being cannot be known, it's just human thought and nature limits how easily some concepts can be grasped. And it's very difficult to explain. Why believers just shrug and place their faith in God, I suppose. It's too complex. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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#37
11-13-2007, 07:40 AM
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Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
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Omnibenevolence? Sure, it's a plausible concept but man is not benevolent as a matter of regard. It seems logical that such a powerful being would be all these things, but not necessary. [/ QUOTE ] If man is not benevolent, then the actions of men aren't necessarily benevolent and some sucker ( [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) will suffer from it. Any god that allows that, would have to be doubted as benevolent itself.
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#38
11-13-2007, 07:51 AM
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Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
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[ QUOTE ] Omnibenevolence? Sure, it's a plausible concept but man is not benevolent as a matter of regard. It seems logical that such a powerful being would be all these things, but not necessary. [/ QUOTE ] If man is not benevolent, then the actions of men aren't necessarily benevolent and some sucker ( [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) will suffer from it. Any god that allows that, would have to be doubted as benevolent itself. [/ QUOTE ] You're probably right in a linear view. But if he understands he doesn't need to be benevolent but to let the natural laws of man arise and observe. It's a matter of perception, I suppose. When I said it wasn't necessary, I meant he doesn't have to be completely omnibenevolent, and that there would be ample room for him to correct things. Then again I tend to think human perception of time as linear and cause and effect are fundamentally incorrect. Which allows me to speculate a scenario in where everything can happen but that there are limits to everything. As for what or who imposes those limits, consider that a human mind can only take so much pain and suffering before it shuts down. Proof that there is a natural law there too perhaps? Nobody human can take on an infinite amount of pain and suffering.
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#39
11-13-2007, 07:54 AM
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Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
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You're probably right in a linear view. But if he understands he doesn't need to be benevolent but to let the natural laws of man arise and observe. It's a matter of perception, I suppose. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, the perception of the victim is not relevant to a tyrant!
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#40
11-13-2007, 07:56 AM
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Re: Crazy Question about Omnipotence
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[ QUOTE ] You're probably right in a linear view. But if he understands he doesn't need to be benevolent but to let the natural laws of man arise and observe. It's a matter of perception, I suppose. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, the perception of the victim is not relevant to a tyrant! [/ QUOTE ] Tyranny and dispassion are two different things.
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Linear Mode
