SSHE is the nuts!

[jeffnc]

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I have this book and it was one of the first I bought. The online SSHE games in general are tighter now than when this book first came out. Even the begginer/ intermediate charts are almost useless when it comes to online low limit games these days as you will be folding far too often and just not being aggressive enough. I know there's an advanced section in there but the begginer would want to get on the advanced material ASAP and disregard the starting hand chart.

anyway just my 2 cents.

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Aggression doesn't make the starting hand charts irrelevant, they're still very good. I do see your point. But this book is far more relevant for the modern online game than SSHE, which is interesting since it came out first.

[renereal]

Here is the scoop guys. In general SSHE players online are safe players they know when to fold, thats why they play limit because there not big risk takers. Were i see the most money thrown away is small stakes no limit holdem, you see the players that play no limit in general are more risk takers and thats what i play online and players hand me there money more often then not. Maybe 2+2 should write a new book Small Stakes No Limit Holdem Online. SSNLHEO

[JJay1231]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have this book and it was one of the first I bought. The online SSHE games in general are tighter now than when this book first came out. Even the begginer/ intermediate charts are almost useless when it comes to online low limit games these days as you will be folding far too often and just not being aggressive enough. I know there's an advanced section in there but the begginer would want to get on the advanced material ASAP and disregard the starting hand chart.

anyway just my 2 cents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aggression doesn't make the starting hand charts irrelevant, they're still very good. I do see your point. But this book is far more relevant for the modern online game than SSHE, which is interesting since it came out first.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're playing in tight aggressive games (which a lot of LLHE games are online), then using a passive starting hand chart which the one in ITH certainly is, makes a big dint to your bottom line. You will simply be folding too many playable hands and get eaten by the blinds.

I do however agree with you that ITH (the book as a whole) would be more relevent to the current LLHE online games than SSHE.

[renereal]

Let me give you an example of what happens when i finally do get a good hand in SSHE online and there are some fish and some TAG players. I get dealt pocket KK. two TAG will see the flop, one has JJ the other has AQs. two fish are in the pot one has 76o and the other has A2u. the flop comes 728, i bet the 76 calls the JJ raises the AQ folds A2 calls. I reraise the 76folds the JJ reraises the A2 calls, i call. The turn is Q I raise and it gets reraised to a 4 bet and we all see the river wich is a A. It gets 4 bet again and the fish A2 takes the pot. This is what happens when u do finally get a hand and your trapped between a TAG and a Fish.

[Niediam]

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Let me give you an example of what happens when i finally do get a good hand in SSHE online and there are some fish and some TAG players. I get dealt pocket KK. two TAG will see the flop, one has JJ the other has AQs. two fish are in the pot one has 76o and the other has A2u. the flop comes 728, i bet the 76 calls the JJ raises the AQ folds A2 calls. I reraise the 76folds the JJ reraises the A2 calls, i call. The turn is Q I raise and it gets reraised to a 4 bet and we all see the river wich is a A. It gets 4 bet again and the fish A2 takes the pot. This is what happens when u do finally get a hand and your trapped between a TAG and a Fish.

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Why are you raising the turn?

Why arn't you folding the river?

Less posting for you in the books forum and more in the Micro Stakes Limit forum. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Adman]

I would just like to add my two cents worth to this discussion. In my opinion, SSHE is still hands down the best limit hold 'em book ever written and is the book I credit most with my modest online poker success. This book is the reason I have been able to turn a starting deposit of $25 into a 5 figure bankroll over the course of a year starting at extremely low limits ($0.25/$0.50- yes, I know I was actually under bankrolled, even for $0.25/$0.50! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) and working my way up very slowly through each successive limit relying completely on the skills I was able to acquire through repeated readings of SSHE. Of course I am aiming even higher and one day want to play middle limits but I am extremely strict with bankroll requirements and these days I don't move up a limit until I have at least 800 times the big bet so my progress tends to be slow and steady, I don't "take shots" because I am just not willing to go busto.

Yes, from my observations the games have changed since the publication of SSHE, the most marked change is the increased aggression of the players. If you really understand the concepts from SSHE however, you will just know how to adapt them to the newer type of player. If you know theoretically how to play in a loose passive game, you will understand how to adapt as the game gets tighter, more aggressive or whatever. You don't need a book to spell it out for you.

You will instinctively realize that you can no longer limp in early position with a small pocket pair (as advocated in SSHE), counting on a multi-way pot and no raise since you observe frequent raising from the players behind you, so you stop doing that and drastically tighten up in early position and only open for a raise when you do enter the pot. You stop trying free card plays because you find yourself frequently being 3 bet or called and then bet into on the turn so you make that adjustment. You find yourself up against a maniac who always has to get in the last raise so you go a bit limp, forfeiting to some extent the role of the aggressor and just let him bet your hand for you and hang himself with his over aggression. Again, you don't need a book to spell this stuff out for you. If you understand WHY you are doing certain things to exploit one particular type of game and opponent, you will also understand WHY you cannot do them when the game changes in a different direction and will adjust as required.

The discussion of post flop play in SSHE is also the best you can find anywhere and it goes into detail that no book before or since has ever matched. Post flop concepts tend to hold true regardless of the type of game you are in. You still need to protect vulnerable hands, you should still raise strong draws for value, you still need to accurately count your outs when contemplating a call, the presence of hidden outs can still often swing a fold to a call, you still should pay off even if you are almost certain you are beat on the river when the pot is huge etc. This stuff doesn't change regardless of the game.

Internet Texas hold 'em is a great book too but I do find Matthew Hilgers pre flop strategy a little too passive for my liking. I would never open limp JJ or TT etc (in fact I never open limp any hand). If I do play AQ against a raise I am going to 3 bet or fold. I don't like cold calling and I try to never ever do it. Other than that type of advice I really do love that book too.

[renereal]

i did raise the turn and re raised. i bet the river for pot odds in such a big pot with a big hand. Is this the right river play? I think it is maybe you would fold your KK on the river if you were in my situation and leave all that money you invested there.

[blee24]

Nice post, congrats on successfully building a big bankroll! I wish you would change "You will instinctively realize that..." to "I found that I instinctively realized..."

It feels condescending towards those of us that haven't been as successful as you. But, its interesting to hear the types of insights that helped you with your success.

[Adman]

I apologize if I came across condescending in any way, that was NOT my intention and in no way was I trying to boast or belittle anyone else's efforts. Like I said in my post, I have achieved MODEST success and I meant that. Success is relative, there are people on these forums who have million dollar bankrolls and would laugh at what I have accomplished so my "achievement" is relatively minor in comparison. For a lot of successful poker players my BR is not "big" and would be considered a meager single buy-in for them! The highest I play is 5/10 limit so I am definitely not some high roller throwing out scraps of wisdom to the low limit grinders.

I was just trying to stress the point that if you understand the conceptual ideas behind the advice relating to the games SSHE was written for, you (I if you prefer, whatever) will also understand that when the game changes in whatever way it does, that your play must also adjust and you (I) will just know intuitively what those adjustments entail. I'm probably not putting into words what I am trying to say well I know. I think what I mean is that if you understand how to alter your play for a certain type of game because you understand poker conceptually, then you will also know how to adjust to other types of games even though you may not have much experience playing in that type of game. Does that make sense? As a very basic example, if you understand that you have to be very careful what types of hands you enter a pot with in a super aggressive game where almost every pot is being 3 bet or capped pre-flop, then conversely you will also understand that in a very passive game where no one ever raises, you can relax a bit and play a little more marginal hands because you don't fear having to pay more to see a flop than your hand is worth. If you understand one then you kind of automatically can understand the other, you wouldn't have to read one book about aggressive games and then another about passive games would you? Does that make any sense?

So, in the case of SSHE, if you understand the concepts needed to beat the games that book was written about, you will know which of those will and will not apply when playing in tighter, more aggressive games. ie: you wouldn't bet middle pair for value on the river against a tough aggressive player where you know if he calls you, you are beat, you would check it down. Against a calling station who sees 85% of flops and takes ace high to the river every hand you would bet that hand and expect to be called by a worse hand. If you understand one, then you understand the other to some extent.

[mchilger]

I'd like to add one comment on the "typical" online game. The majority of ITH was written back in 2002 when most of the games I was playing (15-30 to 20-40 range) were quite tight. Typical preflop percentages were in the 20-22% range.

Then the Internet boom hit in 2003, just right for the release of my book [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Between 2003 and 2006, thousands and thousands of new players hit the tables and the games became very loose and ripe.

Now what we are seeing is two-fold, 1/ the weak players are going broke and there are fewer players to replace them and 2/ the players have become much more educated. So the games are becoming tougher again.

In terms of this thread, most of the concepts in both Small Stakes and ITH are relevant whether you play in loose games or tight games, small stakes or high stakes. Tight games are never always tight and loose games never always loose. To be a good limit player you need to know how to adjust to game conditions and to hand conditions. I’m sure many, many high stakes players have benefitted from some of the concepts discussed in SSH.