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#31
11-11-2007, 12:47 PM
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Re: 6max starting hands chart
This thread has long been hijacked and I participated in the hijacking, so ...... but getting back on track.
..... Blah blah blah pf ...... Truth of the matter is this. Pf play is grounded in postflop conditions .. these dertermine your pf play. This include villians tendencies, but also how you balance your own game. Noobs do not have postflop skills, therefore they can not be flexible pf, they simply have no grasp of what they are doing. That is why poker learning starts with a pf chart and a very basic postflop system. Once you start to understand that basic system, you can then expand ... and thus as a consequece of this revide your pf 'chart'. With time this chart in a sense ceases to exist, and you just play poker. Also note that game condition are NOT necesarrily what dertermine your vpip. You can play NAG or LAG at a given table and show a profit, but postflop play changes radically depending on your pf handselection. True there is no such thing as a pf starting hands chart that is rigid and the best hands always (not even in minbet poker) ... But in all honesty OP is a noob and unlike so many others actually provides reads. NOOBS NEED CHARTS OR ELSE THEY WILL BE LOST AND MOST LIKELY SPEWING!! (BTW IMO his 'chart' is actually too loose, but that is a different matter altogether. ) 
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#33
11-11-2007, 01:37 PM
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Re: 6max starting hands chart
I agree with Bozzer et al. Before you can get to the whys you have to figure out what it is you are doing specifically. Do I raise KQo UTG generally? Summarizing like this can be helpful to oneself and should be a good aid to OP to think further.
Generally, I think most people here raise 22+ UTG and raise less from the blinds. If button limps I raise my BB with a tighter range than UTG, without a read. But my UTG range is way wider than yours of course.
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#34
11-12-2007, 09:35 AM
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Re: 6max starting hands chart
[ QUOTE ]
Well then Corsakh ... explain, how do you go about constructing your pf ranges ? [/ QUOTE ] That would be a freaking lengthy post worth of writing a book to be honest [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I can only say there were cases I was glad raising 56s UTG. There were cases I was folding AT in LP. There were cases I was limping AJ UTG. How does someoen propose to put this into a chart? My usual stats distribution on 4 tables looks something like 45/35 10/6 20/10 25/15 The only real advice I can give is read the forum and play the hands. ps I am not sure but why matrix says preflop is <<<< than postflop. In my opinion its exactly the opposite. Preflop: - you are given an opportunity to make a mistake much more often. You play 4 times more hands preflop than you do post. - poker is designed this way that mistakes on early streets though are less in value in the beginning, cost you a lot more on later streets. Say your calling a pot on the river. You can be wrong 66% and still be even. Your calling preflop 3BB with a dominated hand - say good bye to half your stack for a 3BB mistake. - preflop play sets your image, your initiative, control and pace of the game. Turning a 50% to see flop with 10BB average pot into a 40% to see flop with 50BB average pot is probably one of the most important aspects of the game [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Not very important perhaps for nutpedalling, but pretty much bread and watter of anyone playing above 14/10. Many other things to consider, but I think preflop is absolutely an art. Thing is, at micros it does not matter. You can still be a total drooler and win money cos your surrounded by bigger droolers. Its just the fact there its much easier to play with two cards preflop than it is with 5 on the flop, so most people grasp the very basics of preflop play faster than postflop hence our edge is a bit bigger post and we make more money postflop. Thats where I believe matrix is coming from. But not to say that post >>>> pre [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#35
11-12-2007, 10:18 AM
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Re: 6max starting hands chart
[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure but why matrix says preflop is <<<< than postflop. In my opinion its exactly the opposite. [/ QUOTE ] turn decision > river decision > flop decision > pf decision imo
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#36
11-12-2007, 10:32 AM
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Re: 6max starting hands chart
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] btn: mostly atc depending on blinds and table conditions [/ QUOTE ] ATC means what??? [/ QUOTE ] ATC = Any Two Cards. There is a post by Ajmargarine in the SSNL sticky which gives a guide to the lingo used in these here forums - uNL AND SSNL stickies ought to be required reading. And for the newer posters a yearish ago uNL didn't exist and SSNL coverd the micro tables as well so there is a lot of relevant content in there. Corsakh: I say postflop is >>>>>>>> than preflop cos you can win monies with a BAD preflop strat - if you have a good postflop strat. It doesn't work the other way around. (Yes I realise you CAN win monies at microstakes with good pre and bad post - but ONLY at microstakes cos of the huge amount of droolers. Our goal ought to be to learn a solid game and move up to higher limits - you can't do that without a half decent postflop game) Postflop bets are orders of magnitude larger than preflop bets - so mistakes made post are more costly overall. Most of the monies at a poker table are won or lost postflop - not preflop. Yes preflop and postflop are linked and good preflop play tends to lead on to better postflop play - but noobs (and I did this when I was a noob) tend to spend way too long thinking about preflop when they ought to think more about postflop imo. Preflop is the springboard and is much simpler than post. If you are calling 3BB preflop with a dominated hand - in order to say bye bye to half your stack you are also making postflop mistakes I think - so blaming that on just the smallish preflop mistake is misleading. Yes the preflop mistake makes the rest of the hand tougher to play - so it creates harder postflop decision which we will often get wrong, and by definition a solid preflop strat makes postflop easier. Yes we make preflop decisions with much greater frequency - but they are SIMPLE decisions compared to those postflop. Therefore we get them right (or ought to) much more often than postflop decisions. for all these reasons imo postflop is much more important to learn and learn well than preflop tho obv you do need to be good at both to be a solid winning player.
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