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#31
11-27-2007, 12:24 AM
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Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
[ QUOTE ]
Against me in this spot I would call down and not like it. If this were a hand in a vacuum against an unknown TAG, I would not 3-bet big overpairs. But this situation, if any, would have me widening my 3-betting range for the reasons Nate posted. [/ QUOTE ] I'm actually surprised that you would widen your 3-betting range to include overpair hands here, perhaps I gave Snowball a bit too much credit with his image. Let me instead ask you, what range of hands do you think Snowball c/r's the turn with that makes 3-betting a hand like AA or KK optimal? 
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#32
11-27-2007, 12:36 AM
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Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Against me in this spot I would call down and not like it. If this were a hand in a vacuum against an unknown TAG, I would not 3-bet big overpairs. But this situation, if any, would have me widening my 3-betting range for the reasons Nate posted. [/ QUOTE ] I'm actually surprised that you would widen your 3-betting range to include overpair hands here, perhaps I gave Snowball a bit too much credit with his image. Let me instead ask you, what range of hands do you think Snowball c/r's the turn with that makes 3-betting a hand like AA or KK optimal? [/ QUOTE ] TT-- "Too much credit?" There are reasons that strong players would get aggressive with one pair here. Joker should play AJ and other hands like this; also there would be reasons to bet AK on this turn against a woman who's likely drawing and a guy who knows how to fold a pair. More important is to remember what will happen if Joker 3bets: he gets to control how much more money goes in the pot very very often, especially with his tight image. Meanwhile, the woman to his left either folds (which Joker almost certainly wants her to do if he doesn't have a set) or calls two big bets badly. Given that Joker probably has to call the river with a lot of his hands, 3-betting is a small investment. And heck, Snowball might find a way to fold two pair. I don't think any of this is farfetched reasoning: all it takes is assuming that Joker, who reads this forum constantly and knows how to read hands and rarely gets lazy over the felt, is reading hands. --Nate
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#33
11-27-2007, 02:00 AM
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Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Against me in this spot I would call down and not like it. If this were a hand in a vacuum against an unknown TAG, I would not 3-bet big overpairs. But this situation, if any, would have me widening my 3-betting range for the reasons Nate posted. [/ QUOTE ] I'm actually surprised that you would widen your 3-betting range to include overpair hands here, perhaps I gave Snowball a bit too much credit with his image. Let me instead ask you, what range of hands do you think Snowball c/r's the turn with that makes 3-betting a hand like AA or KK optimal? [/ QUOTE ] TT-- "Too much credit?" There are reasons that strong players would get aggressive with one pair here. Joker should play AJ and other hands like this; also there would be reasons to bet AK on this turn against a woman who's likely drawing and a guy who knows how to fold a pair. More important is to remember what will happen if Joker 3bets: he gets to control how much more money goes in the pot very very often, especially with his tight image. Meanwhile, the woman to his left either folds (which Joker almost certainly wants her to do if he doesn't have a set) or calls two big bets badly. Given that Joker probably has to call the river with a lot of his hands, 3-betting is a small investment. And heck, Snowball might find a way to fold two pair. I don't think any of this is farfetched reasoning: all it takes is assuming that Joker, who reads this forum constantly and knows how to read hands and rarely gets lazy over the felt, is reading hands. --Nate [/ QUOTE ] you should answer the question I had for Joker - "what range of hands do you think Snowball c/r's the turn with that makes 3-betting a hand like AA or KK optimal? " using Joker's eyes of course, view Snow as Joker would see him.
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#34
11-27-2007, 02:57 AM
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Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Against me in this spot I would call down and not like it. If this were a hand in a vacuum against an unknown TAG, I would not 3-bet big overpairs. But this situation, if any, would have me widening my 3-betting range for the reasons Nate posted. [/ QUOTE ] I'm actually surprised that you would widen your 3-betting range to include overpair hands here, perhaps I gave Snowball a bit too much credit with his image. Let me instead ask you, what range of hands do you think Snowball c/r's the turn with that makes 3-betting a hand like AA or KK optimal? [/ QUOTE ] TT-- "Too much credit?" There are reasons that strong players would get aggressive with one pair here. Joker should play AJ and other hands like this; also there would be reasons to bet AK on this turn against a woman who's likely drawing and a guy who knows how to fold a pair. More important is to remember what will happen if Joker 3bets: he gets to control how much more money goes in the pot very very often, especially with his tight image. Meanwhile, the woman to his left either folds (which Joker almost certainly wants her to do if he doesn't have a set) or calls two big bets badly. Given that Joker probably has to call the river with a lot of his hands, 3-betting is a small investment. And heck, Snowball might find a way to fold two pair. I don't think any of this is farfetched reasoning: all it takes is assuming that Joker, who reads this forum constantly and knows how to read hands and rarely gets lazy over the felt, is reading hands. --Nate [/ QUOTE ] you should answer the question I had for Joker - "what range of hands do you think Snowball c/r's the turn with that makes 3-betting a hand like AA or KK optimal? " using Joker's eyes of course, view Snow as Joker would see him. [/ QUOTE ] TT-- I don't know much about Snowball. From Joker's perspective Snowball could do this with two pair or better, sometimes with Qx, and sometimes taking a shot with a pocket pair or draw or something. The last is admittedly unlikely, but remember that the lady doesn't have to have a pair and sometimes Joker won't either. Also, this line of reasoning gets hashed out a hundred times daily on 2+2, but if Joker's going to give Snowball credit for such a big hand, Snowball should raise a lot. If this were a protected pot, we could interpret actions honestly, but the lady to Joker's left is an anti-protecting presence here. And again, there's very little risk to 3-betting, from Joker's shoes. The wonky one-pair and no-pair hands in Snowball's range can be discounted heavily and still swing this to a threebet. --Nate EDIT: By the way, I hadn't ignored your question; I meant to address it with my "too much credit?" thing. Those very first comments are meant to refer to Snowball.
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#35
11-27-2007, 03:28 AM
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Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
"Such is the position you're in when you call my raises with 63o, flop bottom pair, and peel."
Not really. Most of the time when he makes a hand he's going to have your balls in a grinder. -Michael
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#36
11-27-2007, 03:34 AM
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Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
[ QUOTE ]
Not really. Most of the time when he makes a hand he's going to have your balls in a grinder. [/ QUOTE ] Oh, I know. That's why I facetiously attempted to discourage him from doing it (by saying it's hard for me to put him on this hand). Next time I'm not going to be lucky enough to have flopped a set.
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#38
11-27-2007, 03:47 AM
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Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
[ QUOTE ]
Not really. Think about it from PJ's prospective [/ QUOTE ] OK. Let's do that. When PJ has an overpair or maybe AJ.......I bet the JT3 flop and got called in a few spots, one of whom is in the BB and reads 2+2, so there is a chance he is not a complete idiot. A rag hits the turn, and now this guy check/raises. Hmmm. Well, he can't have JT, because check calling this flop would be idiotic. He can't have a set, because check calling this flop would be idiotic. He MAY have something like AJ-QJ, but if he does the only hand in my range here that (a) currently beats him and (b) is rather vulnerable to that is QQ. There were lots of people in preflop, so he was getting a good price. I bet he has something like T6s, which I cannot currently beat. I could 3bet this turn with my AA and charge the tramp behind me to draw to her spades, but why would I ever do that when BB clearly has me beat? OK, I call and sure hope the board pairs the 3. When PJ has JJ or TT....I don't what this guy has, but it doesn't beat me and now I get to go crazy on this turn with a set and this gal drawing at a flush behind me. Thank you, God. The proper turn play for BB here is to call the 3bet. When a good card comes on the river (like a red 2), he should donk/fold.
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#39
11-27-2007, 04:15 AM
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Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Not really. Think about it from PJ's prospective [/ QUOTE ] OK. Let's do that. When PJ has an overpair or maybe AJ.......I bet the JT3 flop and got called in a few spots, one of whom is in the BB and reads 2+2, so there is a chance he is not a complete idiot. A rag hits the turn, and now this guy check/raises. Hmmm. Well, he can't have JT, because check calling this flop would be idiotic. He can't have a set, because check calling this flop would be idiotic. He MAY have something like AJ-QJ, but if he does the only hand in my range here that (a) currently beats him and (b) is rather vulnerable to that is QQ. There were lots of people in preflop, so he was getting a good price. I bet he has something like T6s, which I cannot currently beat. I could 3bet this turn with my AA and charge the tramp behind me to draw to her spades, but why would I ever do that when BB clearly has me beat? OK, I call and sure hope the board pairs the 3. When PJ has JJ or TT....I don't what this guy has, but it doesn't beat me and now I get to go crazy on this turn with a set and this gal drawing at a flush behind me. Thank you, God. The proper turn play for BB here is to call the 3bet. When a good card comes on the river (like a red 2), he should donk/fold. [/ QUOTE ] PokerBob-- Thanks for this post. I agree Snowball looks like two pair, but if he's going to fold two pair to a threebet then Joker can exploit the crap out of him. I understand that exploitability is far from the end of the story, but in a spot like this it's worth thinking about. And I don't think Joker can put Snowball so squarely on two pair, simply because Snowball can't put Joker squarely on a pair at all. This could be an opportunistic raise in a substantial pot against someone who probably doesn't have much and someone who might not. Or it could just be for value with a Q that he for some reason decided to check twice. And, as I elaborated on before, I think this is a spot where Joker should be looking for reasons to 3-bet, not to call. --Nate EDIT: I see that you edited your post to include a line for BB. Glad to see we agree.
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#40
11-27-2007, 04:22 AM
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Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I would play a turned pair+flushdraw like this. [/ QUOTE ] well that sure is bad. [/ QUOTE ] PokerBob-- Is this really that bad? LP can easily have garbage and PJ can easily have AK/AQ. [Insert thing about fractions of bets and big pots.] BTW I'm legitimately asking this question, not being passive-aggressive. I'm not sure it's viable but every so often you induce a fold from a live or even better hand, sometimes you make money immediately, and you rarely lose much. I guess getting 3bet by a set would be unpleasant, but c'mon, whoever flops a set? --Nate EDIT: Maybe the key distinction to make re: your post is that between clearly wrong and very wrong?
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