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#31
09-22-2007, 06:46 PM
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Re: WCCOP Razz - defend against a LAG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] What kind of stats would villain need in order to place (KK)5 in his range? [/ QUOTE ] Watching him play for 2 hours where its plain as day that his open range is wider than everyone else at the table. He plays a "I have the lowest card so i must raise" style, even if there are three other low cards remaining. Looking at his cards at showdown has been a constant "huh?" moment. Of course we arent narrowing down to (KK)5, we are really narrowing down to (**)5. On a related note I saw him limp in with a monster at least 1x that I can recall - (A2)3. [/ QUOTE ] In LA, I've watched good hold em players (really good players (players I've paid cash money for in calcuttas)) follow a whale to a mixed game where razz was a part of the lineup, and had them pegged within a few hands. To quote the long departed, and sorely missed, Abdul, "Bet, Bet, Bet! Pound, Pound, Pound!" Since 5/13s of their door cards are wheel cards, they try to take control of the game fairly quickly. It's grand to watch. 
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#32
09-22-2007, 09:12 PM
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Re: WCCOP Razz - defend against a LAG
[ QUOTE ]
I hope this hand develops a good discussion, many spots where i could have played differently. I am still kinda- new to tournys, I keep getting deep but there might be playing situations like this sub-optimally. Tournament - Razz - Level X (400/800), Ante 80, Bring-In 120 (converter) Seat 1: 11,785 Seat 2: 5,763 Seat 3: 2,096 Seat 4: 24,720 Hero: 3,138 Seat 6: 13,918 Seat 7: 5,545 Seat 8: 8,864 [/ QUOTE ] Here's the thing about tournaments. In this case it isn't about equity or hand ranges or anything else. It's about the stack sizes. That short stack is just looking for a hand to go all-in on. Don't get involved; leave him for the big stacks to take care of unless you have a hand, yourself, you'd be willing to commit that many chips to. If you had had the first betting option and had bet, he would have raised. He never had any other intention than all-in. It's just a really easy way to get sucked out on. Folding 3rd was the best trny strategy here, IMO.
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#33
09-22-2007, 09:29 PM
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Re: WCCOP Razz - defend against a LAG
[ QUOTE ]
SOP says to call with two live wheel cards against a raise from the last person to act with a wheel cards. In marginal situations, don't play dead cards. Your cards are about as dead as they can get. To say you pick up the pot a lot on 4th street is irrelevant. A lot of times, you catch good, he catches bad, and he has a real hand, and you get in a bet or two and wind up tied to the hand with dead cards. [/ QUOTE ] SOP typically assumes the opponent's range isn't **5.
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#34
09-22-2007, 09:45 PM
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Re: WCCOP Razz - defend against a LAG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] SOP says to call with two live wheel cards against a raise from the last person to act with a wheel cards. In marginal situations, don't play dead cards. Your cards are about as dead as they can get. To say you pick up the pot a lot on 4th street is irrelevant. A lot of times, you catch good, he catches bad, and he has a real hand, and you get in a bet or two and wind up tied to the hand with dead cards. [/ QUOTE ] SOP typically assumes the opponent's range isn't **5. [/ QUOTE ] If opponent is last to act, raising with a wheel card against a face card, I think his range is generally **5. I know mine is, certainly with this ante structure. Most people don't raise **5 into a 7 and the bringin.
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#35
09-22-2007, 09:52 PM
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Re: WCCOP Razz - defend against a LAG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] SOP says to call with two live wheel cards against a raise from the last person to act with a wheel cards. In marginal situations, don't play dead cards. Your cards are about as dead as they can get. To say you pick up the pot a lot on 4th street is irrelevant. A lot of times, you catch good, he catches bad, and he has a real hand, and you get in a bet or two and wind up tied to the hand with dead cards. [/ QUOTE ] SOP typically assumes the opponent's range isn't **5. [/ QUOTE ] If opponent is last to act, raising with a wheel card against a face card, I think his range is generally **5. I know mine is, certainly with this ante structure. Most people don't raise **5 into a 7 and the bringin. [/ QUOTE ] Oh, I totally agree, but it seems like much of the earlier discussion, plus OP statement, was along the lines that this player was playing **5 here. I'm not sure if I'd defend here, but it's a slightly different situation than is discussed in SOP.
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#36
09-22-2007, 11:14 PM
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Re: WCCOP Razz - defend against a LAG
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I'd defend here, but it's a slightly different situation than is discussed in SOP. [/ QUOTE ] SOP discusses the situation based on specific parameters (15/30 and 30/60 games). Anyone who takes the time to dissect the games and figure out why recommendations occur due to the size of the pot and the odds your opponent is laying you will open a hidden world of Razz knowledge. Additionally we have the extra tool of equity simulation which is hot and cold to the river which in this situation since we postulate that the villain is getting his money in here then its good to let him do this while the hero has a positive equity edge (again - in a cash game for sure, I am not convinced for a tourny yet although since I was short stacked and in dire need of a double up I think if there was any time in a tourny this might be it, of course I am willing to admit I still might be wrong). Lastly the hero is getting the proper odds to outflop the villain on the following street, and if he doesn't outflop then we can reassess the hero's equity in the hand (in this case the hero is a favorite). This discussion reminds me of when SSHE first came out, lots of posters were arguing about re-raising on the button with a backdoor flush draw, a backdoor straight draw and 2 overcards in a large pot. This all seems so simple now, but back then it was the new frontier. Razz is a game where we are just beginning to collectively learn new things and its slowly changing how the game is played by experts.
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#37
09-23-2007, 12:07 AM
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Re: WCCOP Razz - defend against a LAG
You are underestimating the weakness of having your hand face up. Also, even if you can defend a lot looser than SOP recommends, you really have to adjust for your hand being dead. A lot of times, I would fold 3 cards to a 5 to a aise if my cards were that dead.
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#38
09-23-2007, 12:13 AM
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Re: WCCOP Razz - defend against a LAG
[ QUOTE ]
You are underestimating the weakness of having your hand face up. [/ QUOTE ] I am not underestimating that at all. I am taking advantage of my opponent's proclivity to dump chips with my face up hand because he cannot see his own hand in front of his face. [ QUOTE ] Also, even if you can defend a lot looser than SOP recommends, you really have to adjust for your hand being dead. A lot of times, I would fold 3 cards to a 5 to a aise if my cards were that dead. [/ QUOTE ] Please re-read this thread, this has already been answered. Also think back to SSHE's hidden outs, that might help.
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#39
09-23-2007, 02:40 AM
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Re: WCCOP Razz - defend against a LAG
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Also, even if you can defend a lot looser than SOP recommends, you really have to adjust for your hand being dead. A lot of times, I would fold 3 cards to a 5 to a aise if my cards were that dead. [/ QUOTE ] Please re-read this thread, this has already been answered. Also think back to SSHE's hidden outs, that might help. [/ QUOTE ] You fold this on 3rd. This is just what you do in a tournament you want to cash or win in. Seed has two Razz bracelets, I believe, he's folded A23 when he did have live cards. Your call here is not what to do when you are short-stacked. Maybe you should read the few pages on Razz trny play in the Full Tilt tournament guide. That might help.
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