Could anyone in the world have lost less with these pocket kings?

[Stumpy]

I'm not sure it's worth trying to be serious in this thread anymore, but honestly, you should raise in the BB with hands much weaker than KK if you have 8 limpers. I would do it with Ax suited. The fact that 9 people are going to the flop means it's going to be high variance, and you will lose most of the time, but the one win more than makes up for it.

Imagine that TAG had 77 or 89, both of which obviously call the flop, could raise the turn. You'd be 16% to win on the flop, and almost 10% on the turn. If you raised it preflop, the pot would be up to 10.5BB by the turn, and if fish just check/calls the turn, you'd have the right odds to draw to the K or T.

You happened to find a spot you were right, but you're being very results oriented. If you know the guy is a fish, the TAG does too, and all you've done is check/call one bet from the BB. Why couldn't she raise the fish if she turned a J, hoping to push you out?

Should she have just called to the river with her set of Ts, worried about the straight on the board?

It's not exactly the same, but I think this is a good spot to reference the fur coat dilemma again:

The Fur Coat Dilemma

I don't mean you have to call down every time, but preflop you had 1:5 odds with a chance to get 8:1 on a bet and you turned it down because you were afraid of the variance.

Stumpy

[chesspain]

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I still don't know where you're getting the 20%-30% figure from. I said I ran 8 random hands and got under 20% for KK. 67 suited had nearly as much equity as me.

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See this: http://gocee.com/poker/HE_Val_Sort.htm

[ncboiler]

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Now let me just say, normally I would raise kings pre-flop from any position but I wasn't really myself at the time for some reason, and I kept thinking about the part of SSHE that discusses keeping the pot small to make it easier to take down later.

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I think you misunederstood this or misread it.

[ncboiler]

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Ignoring results, raise PF and raise this flop [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Given that many B&M fish will overcall this flop with things like 87o, but suddenly turn into reasonable players if you raise, I don't think the flop call is bad.

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By reasonable you mean fold to your PF raise after limping? You don't care if they fold or not.

[ncboiler]

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Show me where I said he says that. I'm merely using one of the concepts from his books slightly "out of the box."

I still don't know where you're getting the 20%-30% figure from. I said I ran 8 random hands and got under 20% for KK. 67 suited had nearly as much equity as me. I still think disguising my hand OOP and keeping the pot small is at least something to consider instead of attaching everyone to a big pot and being slowplayed by a better hand or sucked out on by a gutshot that I GAVE someone correct odds to draw to for 4 extra bets I will win less than 1/5 times.

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Did you assume everyone goes to showdown?

[KSOT]

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Did you assume everyone goes to showdown?

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Is there a simulator out there that will just show you the odds to the flop?

Anyway, I surrender my position sicne there's no way all of you are wrong. I'm still content with the fact that instead of trying to win or lose a really big pot, I took the line geared towards winning a decent pot or losing barely anything. 2/4 and 4/8 live are post flop games anyway.

In conclusion, I get what you're all saying. No need for any more rewordings.

[Warren Harding]

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Is there a simulator out there that will just show you the odds to the flop?


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Try this:

http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/calcula...&decimals=0

or pencil and paper.

[JohnAndersen]

I think I want to punch myself in the face just for reading this.

[Homer315]

I know I'm way late, but here's the reality. If you were playing only one single hand of poker in your whole life, then playing this the way you did would not be so bad, because, like you said, you'd win a decent pot, or not lose so much.

It's definitely going to be higher variance to raise preflop here, but who cares? You have an edge, and, although it's smaller than it might be against 2 or 3 players, the pot is commensurately larger. So you have a smaller piece of a bigger pie.

In the long run it is unquestionably MORE +ev to raise it preflop. It's one long poker session your life, right? That's what we're discussing here, the proper strategy to play most, if not all, of the time.

The earlier post about AA in no limit is another good example. If you only had $100 and were only playing NL poker one time in your life for a few hours, then it may not make sense to go all in against 6 people, because you can expect to end up making more money by playing well for a few hours and not risk going bankrupt. But who really cares about the strategy in that one type of session? We discuss here the strategy that is best long term and will earn us the most money over the long haul.

FWIW, I think your play is atrocious as a long term strategy.

[Grease]

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Wow. You can argue all you want about the pre-flop raise, but to say you would go to showdown 9/10 times when a female TAG waits for the turn to raise a paired board is just downright atrocious. You are spewing chips all over the place. I'm sorry to say it, but it doesn't sound like you're a very good player at all. Sometimes big pockets pairs aren't good enough to take to showdown. Sounds like you're going to learn that the hard way over the course of your career.

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Wow. Way to take one sentence I said and apply it to my entire game and poker career. I said I would take kings to showdown 9 times out of 10, which I probably do, but if a TAG pulled the trigger on the turn, I would fold (that would be the 1 time out of 10.)

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You are spewing chips all over the place.

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I think I'm on the weak side of TAG, so I highly doubt this is true.