Official arguing about caffine thread

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]

If Player A takes PED's, but never gets caught, did he cheat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Except your neglecting to realize that it isn't analogous to the Bonds discussion.

You are taking for granted your belief in the unproven allegations, and projecting them as fact upon the rest of the scenario.

Let's back up and rework the analogy into a situation that more accurately relates to Bond's situation:


If Person B alleges Player A took PED's, but it has not been proven, did Player A cheat?

You see when we strip back the allegations, the speculation, and the opinion, and look just at the facts, the answer becomes clear.

You *think* he cheated. You *believe* he cheated. It is your *opinion* that he cheated.

But in reality, it isn't a fact, and it hasn't been proven.

Funny how that works, huh?

[manbearpig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Please find where I did this. I have never said Bonds admitted to using PED's.


[/ QUOTE ]

Too easy.

Excerpt from one of your previous posts:

[ QUOTE ]

BB has leaked grand jury testimony where he admits to using PEDs.


[/ QUOTE ]

To which I countered as false in this post.

To which you then replied that you felt I messed up and were expecting me to admit I was wrong.

To which, ultimately, you admitted you were wrong, and conceded that Bonds had not in fact admitted PED use to the grand jury.

Notice how it kinda went full circle there, just as I had predicted and Pudge did in forecasting the three-round TKO?

Sweet..

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely agree. I misspoke. However, taken in context with every other thing I have written in this thread, you would know that it was clearly a slip. But the bottom line is I wrote something that is not true.

What I should have said was: Bonds has leaked grand jury testimony where he admits to using a substance that could through the reading into of other unsubstantiated evidence be PED's. I apologize.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
You are missing the forest for the trees. Nobody is arguing if Bonds has tested positive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh....so you aren't arguing that Bonds violated the MLB steroid policy?

Good then, we agree on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Never was arguing that. I am arguing whether it is likely he cheated.

[manbearpig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If Player A takes PED's, but never gets caught, did he cheat?

[/ QUOTE ]

Except your neglecting to realize that it isn't analogous to the Bonds discussion.

You are taking for granted your belief in the unproven allegations, and projecting them as fact upon the rest of the scenario.

Let's back up and rework the analogy into a situation that more accurately relates to Bond's situation:


If Person B alleges Player A took PED's, but it has not been proven, did Player A cheat?

You see when we strip back the allegations, the speculation, and the opinion, and look just at the facts, the answer becomes clear.

You *think* he cheated. You *believe* he cheated. It is your *opinion* that he cheated.

But in reality, it isn't a fact, and it hasn't been proven.

Funny how that works, huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just answer the question please.

If Player A takes PED's, but never gets caught, did he cheat? I am not asking about Bonds or Betancourt or anyone. Strictly a hypothetical. It is a yes/no question.

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]
Completely agree. I misspoke. However, taken in context with every other thing I have written in this thread, you would know that it was clearly a slip. But the bottom line is I wrote something that is not true.


[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough, I just thought it was cute that you said I screwed up and should probably admit that I was wrong for countering it as false.....when it turned out it was false. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]

What I should have said was: Bonds has leaked grand jury testimony where he admits to using a substance that could through the reading into of other unsubstantiated evidence be PED's. I apologize.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, you can read anything you want into the selectively leaked excerpts....but have you ever sat down and asked yourself why the authors didn't bother to leak the testimony of the medical experts who testified, despite them having those transcripts in their possession?

Even moreso, why not just publish the excerpts as leaked, rather than paraphrasing them into their own opinions and then narrowly quoting portions out of context to further their allegations?

Did you ever think...hmmm....why did these guys choose only to leak the parts of the transcript that bolstered their allegations, and yet not leak other portions that Bond's lawyer has publically hinted at as being potentially exculpatory?

Surely, you'd agree their is no stadards of fair trial in the court of public opinion, as no more clearly evidenced than here.

When you also consider than Bonds and his defense team is bound by gag order and penalty of law from replying to the allegations in the leaked testimony, as well as prevented by law from discussing the portions that weren't leaked that could paint a different light....you may just sit back and say.....hey, wait a minute....there might be more to this story than these authors have led us to believe.....let's wait until all the evidence comes out and both sides have a chance to speak and then we'll form our conclusions.

[ QUOTE ]

Never was arguing that. I am arguing whether it is likely he cheated.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you're doing it based on the selectively leaked portions of the testimony that the authors feels portrays that belief, without regard or concern for waiting for the entire body of evidence to be revealed.

Like I said, your opinion is your opinion....more power to it....but I'd rather wait to form mine once both sides get a chance and the entirety of the evidence is known, and not just that which is selectively based on the bias of two authors.

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]
If Player A takes PED's, but never gets caught, did he cheat? I am not asking about Bonds or Betancourt or anyone. Strictly a hypothetical. It is a yes/no question.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not really a yes/no question. When did player A take the PED's?

Back to your speeding analogy, for example, if you drive 65 when the speed limit is 65, and then four years later they change the speed limit to 45....that doesn't mean you were speeding four years previous when you drove 65. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[manbearpig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If Player A takes PED's, but never gets caught, did he cheat? I am not asking about Bonds or Betancourt or anyone. Strictly a hypothetical. It is a yes/no question.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not really a yes/no question. When did player A take the PED's?

Back to your speeding analogy, for example, if you drive 65 when the speed limit is 65, and then four years later they change the speed limit to 45....that doesn't mean you were speeding four years previous when you drove 65. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]



[/ QUOTE ]

For the sake of argument, lets say that Player A is currently right now, at this very second, shooting something into his ass that is a PED.

Is he cheating?

[manbearpig]

[ QUOTE ]


Sure, you can read anything you want into the selectively leaked excerpts........[snip]............let's wait until all the evidence comes out and both sides have a chance to speak and then we'll form our conclusions.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

.....[snip] and not just that which is selectively based on the bias of two authors.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ahhh, but you see, there is evidence outside of that testimony. If I was basing this just on a handful on paraphrases from a couple of reporters I would agree with you. But there is much more than that.

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]

For the sake of argument, lets say that Player A is currently right now, at this very second, shooting something into his ass that is a PED.

Is he cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the PED Player A is currently using an illegal PED or a prescribed one?

That would make quite a difference, for example, as cortisone and tylenol-3 are amongst the substances listed on the MLB banned substances list, if taken without prescription......and in the case of Clemens getting that cortisone shot just this year, he was definately being injected with a PED as defined by the policy, but he was not in violation of the policy as it was a prescribed treatment from his medical doctor.

Back to your speeding analogy, which doesn't really fit, but you insisted it was applicable, if the posted speed limit in my housing area is 10 miles per hour because children often play in the streets, etc....and I make a habit of ending my morning jog in a dead sprint the last 50 yards, easily achieving 12+ miles per hour....am I speeding?

Or does the speed limit only apply to motor vehicles as intended and not other legally allowed substances such as my tennis shoes or my bicycle?

(I told you that scenario wasn't analogous in many ways, despite the simplistic view of it seeming "the same".)

[manbearpig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

For the sake of argument, lets say that Player A is currently right now, at this very second, shooting something into his ass that is a PED.

Is he cheating?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the PED Player A is currently using an illegal PED or a prescribed one?

That would make quite a difference, for example, as cortisone and tylenol-3 are amongst the substances listed on the MLB banned substances list, if taken without prescription......and in the case of Clemens getting that cortisone shot just this year, he was definately being injected with a PED as defined by the policy, but he was not in violation of the policy as it was a prescribed treatment from his medical doctor.

Back to your speeding analogy, which doesn't really fit, but you insisted it was applicable, if the posted speed limit in my housing area is 10 miles per hour because children often play in the streets, etc....and I make a habit of ending my morning jog in a dead sprint the last 50 yards, easily achieving 12+ miles per hour....am I speeding?

Or does the speed limit only apply to motor vehicles as intended and not other legally allowed substances such as my tennis shoes or my bicycle?

(I told you that scenario wasn't analogous in many ways, despite the simplistic view of it seeming "the same".)

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy Christ. You know exactly what I am trying to ask.

If Player A at this very second is injecting into his ass a substance that is on the MLB banned substances list and he does not have a prescription/release for it is he cheating?

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]
Ahhh, but you see, there is evidence outside of that testimony. If I was basing this just on a handful on paraphrases from a couple of reporters I would agree with you. But there is much more than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lemme guess...such as pictures, stats, and the "little things"?