AP thread 87.1 - waiting on the statement ITT

[Dan Druff]

Schneids, see my other posts after my initial one. (You were probably responding as I made them.)

After thinking about it, I decided that the additional compensation shouldn't be based upon losses -- it should be based upon total hands played against the cheaters, along with the limit you played against them.

Basically the site will be compensating you for both time wasted and the implied value that the cheaters had of never getting caught and making off with the money.

[Schneids]

Or to further expand how problems could arise:


STAGE #746344245: HOLDEM NORMAL $200/$400 - 2007-08-27 21:32:09 (ET)
Table: LOC NESS AVE (Real Money) Seat #1 is the dealer
Seat 1 - SCHDNFRD ($24712.50 in chips)
Seat 2 - PUNKIN_U ($12376.32 in chips)
Seat 3 - LEAVINGEGYPT ($9190 in chips)
Seat 4 - GRAYCAT ($18517 in chips)
Seat 5 - BERGENISGAY ($18882 in chips)
Seat 6 - TRUTHY ($10845 in chips)
Seat 7 - EZ2PLY ($6445 in chips)
Seat 8 - GEMMER ($7058 in chips)
Seat 9 - MAVERI9 ($7362.50 in chips)
PUNKIN_U - Posts small blind $100
LEAVINGEGYPT - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to PUNKIN_U [Kd 9d]
GRAYCAT - Raises $400 to $400
BERGENISGAY - Folds
TRUTHY - Folds
EZ2PLY - Raises $600 to $600
GEMMER - Folds
MAVERI9 - Folds
SCHDNFRD - Folds
PUNKIN_U - Calls $500
LEAVINGEGYPT - Folds
GRAYCAT - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [2d 8s Qc]
PUNKIN_U - Checks
GRAYCAT - Bets $200
EZ2PLY - Calls $200
PUNKIN_U - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [2d 8s Qc] [2c]
PUNKIN_U - Checks
GRAYCAT - Bets $400
EZ2PLY - Raises $800 to $800
PUNKIN_U - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $800 to $1200
EZ2PLY - Calls $400
*** RIVER *** [2d 8s Qc 2c] [Ks]
GRAYCAT - Bets $400
EZ2PLY - Calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GRAYCAT - Shows [5s 4d] (One pair, twos)
EZ2PLY - Shows [As 5d] (One pair, twos)
EZ2PLY Collects $5795 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($5800) | Rake ($5)
Board [2d 8s Qc 2c Ks]
Seat 1: SCHDNFRD (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: PUNKIN_U (small blind) Folded on the TURN
Seat 3: LEAVINGEGYPT (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: GRAYCAT HI:lost with One pair, twos [5s 4d - B:2d,B:2c,B:Ks,B:Qc,B:8s]
Seat 5: BERGENISGAY Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: TRUTHY Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: EZ2PLY won Total ($5795) HI$5795) with One pair, twos(ace kicker) [As 5d - B:2d,B:2c,P:As,B:Ks,B:Qc]
Seat 8: GEMMER Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: MAVERI9 Folded on the POCKET CARDS



In this hand, had it been a *NORMAL* player playing, they would've probably folded the 54o UTG, which also likely results in baronzeus folding his A5o... And who knows how the rest of the hand would've played out, but with those two factors addressed, I definitely do not put in $600 preflop and another $200 postflop. Or lets say Baronzeus DID open raise, I fold to his open raise, however, because of Graycat playing the hand, and me being aware of BZ 3-betting him ultralight (because of graycat playing every hand), this hand cost me $800. PT shows me losing $800 to BZ from this pot, even though it's effectively Graycat who cost me the $800.

Do I get some form of reimbursement?

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
Schneids, see my other posts after my initial one. (You were probably responding as I made them.)

After thinking about it, I decided that the additional compensation shouldn't be based upon losses -- it should be based upon total hands played against the cheaters, along with the limit you played against them.

Basically the site will be compensating you for both time wasted and the implied value that the cheaters had of never getting caught and making off with the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct, it took some time for me to type up my responses and I didn't see your extensions on the first (also the case in my second post right below last one I quoted of yours).

In any case I agree with everything you say, and AP *should* in some way factor in some additional bonuses for those who us who were cheated.

[hackerssuck]

Associated names:

HILT, TATUM
OSCAR, TATUM
TATUM, HILT
TATUM, HILT
TATUM, OSCAR H
TATUM, OSCAR H
TATUM, OSCAR H
TATUM, OSCAR H DMD
TATUM, OHILT HILT

Possible Employment / Business Associations:

NCNB BLDG Legislative Bodies
NCNB BLDG Legislative Bodies
TATUM HOLDINGS, LLC
Available(9) Available ST PETERSBURG, FL
SAFETY HARBOR, FL
CLEARWATER, FL
TIERRA VERDE, FL
SAINT PETERSBURG, FL
SARASOTA, FL
WESLEY CHAPEL, FL
ZEPHYRHILLS, FL
GAINESVILLE, FL Possible Relatives:

TATUM, O HILTJRDDS (Age 73)
TATUM, CAROLYN C (Age 74)
TATUM, HIH
TATUM, CAROLYN
HILT, OSCARI TATUM
TATUM, TATUM
TATUMO, HILT D (Age 49)
TATUM, O HILT
TATUM, SCARLETT S

Possible Roommates / Associates:

STUTTS, STEVEN CARROLL (Age 43)
LIGHT, JAMES MMDPAFAXLIN (Age 66)
EZULIKE, JOHN CHUKWUEMEK (Age 56)
PHARES, RICHARD EUGENE (Age 71)
EZULIKE, LOLA B (Age 56)
CRAWFORDTHO, TRACY A (Age 46)
BORGNER, RICHARD ADDS (Age 107)
EZULKIE, JOHN C (Age 56)
ROBERTS, BRENDA JORDAN (Age 56)
PALLY, MADHAVA T (Age 58)
MATZKIN, STEVEN RDDS (Age 107)
VERNETTI, MICHELLE T (Age 33)
VERNETTI, ELAINE T (Age 82)
BERGERON, SUKI O (Age 53)

[hackerssuck]

Associated names:

TATUM, HILT
TATUM, O H
TATUM, O HILT
TATUM JR, O

Possible Employment / Business Associations:

UNIQUE PROFESSIONAL PRODUCTS CO, INC
Available(6) Available SAINT PETERSBURG, FL
CLEARWATER, FL
ST PETERSBURG, FL Possible Relatives:

TATUM, CAROLYN
TATUM, HILT O (Age 73)
TATUM, SCARLETT S
TATUM, OSCAR HILTIIIDDS (Age 73)
TATUM, SCARLETT STUTTS (Age 50)
TATUM, III OSCARH
OSCAR, HILT TATUM
OSCAR, HILT TATUM
TATUM, JR OH

Possible Roommates / Associates:

STUTTS, STEVEN CARROLL (Age 43)
WOODS, NORMA J (Age 67)
BORGNER, RICHARD ADDS (Age 107)
View Details
2. TATUM, OSCAR HILT III DDS (Age 73)

Associated names:

HILT, TATUM
OSCAR, TATUM
TATUM, HILT
TATUM, HILT
TATUM, OSCAR H
TATUM, OSCAR H
TATUM, OSCAR H
TATUM, OSCAR H DMD
TATUM, OHILT HILT

Possible Employment / Business Associations:

NCNB BLDG Legislative Bodies
NCNB BLDG Legislative Bodies
TATUM HOLDINGS, LLC
Available(9) Available ST PETERSBURG, FL
SAFETY HARBOR, FL
CLEARWATER, FL
TIERRA VERDE, FL
SAINT PETERSBURG, FL
SARASOTA, FL
WESLEY CHAPEL, FL
ZEPHYRHILLS, FL
GAINESVILLE, FL Possible Relatives:

TATUM, O HILTJRDDS (Age 73)
TATUM, CAROLYN C (Age 74)
TATUM, HIH
TATUM, CAROLYN
HILT, OSCARI TATUM
TATUM, TATUM
TATUMO, HILT D (Age 49)
TATUM, O HILT
TATUM, SCARLETT S

Possible Roommates / Associates:

STUTTS, STEVEN CARROLL (Age 43)
LIGHT, JAMES MMDPAFAXLIN (Age 66)
EZULIKE, JOHN CHUKWUEMEK (Age 56)
PHARES, RICHARD EUGENE (Age 71)
EZULIKE, LOLA B (Age 56)
CRAWFORDTHO, TRACY A (Age 46)
BORGNER, RICHARD ADDS (Age 107)
EZULKIE, JOHN C (Age 56)
ROBERTS, BRENDA JORDAN (Age 56)
PALLY, MADHAVA T (Age 58)
MATZKIN, STEVEN RDDS (Age 107)
VERNETTI, MICHELLE T (Age 33)
VERNETTI, ELAINE T (Age 82)
BERGERON, SUKI O (Age 53)
View Details
3. TATUM, HILT III
Available(1) Available TAMPA, FL
View Details
4. TATUM, HILT
Available(1) Available ST PETE BEACH, FL Possible Relatives:

TATUM, SCARLETT
View Details
5. TATUM, HILT O (Age 73)

Associated names:

TATUM, O. H

Possible Employment / Business Associations:

WORLD MEDICAL, INC
Available SAINT PETERSBURG, FL Possible Relatives:

TATUM, O HILTJRDDS (Age 73)
View Details

[Dan Druff]

BTW, I don't want people taking this as a demand of compensation for "mental anguish" or any BS like that.

The main reason for additional compensation, as I already stated, is the fact that the cheaters should not have been allowed to freeroll us in their attempt to steal our money.

For example, let's say I offered you a game (poker or otherwise) where I may or may not be cheating. The deal I offer you is that if you can conclusively prove I was cheating (and how I did it), I will refund any losses you have. Otherwise, I will keep anything I win. Would you take this deal? Obviously not. Therefore, there must be some sort of premium charged for CHEATING AND GETTING CAUGHT, otherwise the cheaters have nothing to lose by playing dishonestly.

[hackerssuck]

Every Scott Tom in America below

wow 173 of them

[Dan Druff]

Also when is Mark Seif going to post a public apology to me for publicly accusing me of being an "out and out liar" and a "known exaggerator" in order to protect his clearly guilty site?

[imabigdeal]

somebody please ban hackers again

[admiralfluff]

somebody ban this moron immediately.

Druff - I agree the cost of cheating and getting caught must greatly exceed the benefit of cheating and getting away with it. Realize though, that the cheaters will be penalized (at least should be) far beyond simply paying back money. They sould lose their jobs, face charges, and AP will lose far more in lost customers and business.

I still think an extra premium should be paid though: damages, lost wages, and suffering. I think all losses, plus a perhand*stake fee would be appropriate and simple to calculate.