Ram Vaswani speaks about that 'Golf Game'.

[tiltseeker]

ban

[ChicagoRy]

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ok i've read only a fraction of this, but as a golf outsider, [and maybe this is just too obvious of a question] -
does anyone else maybe agree that this whole 'honor system' of betting among professional gamblers is REALLY REALLY STUPID?

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It's the same thing as pros transferring thousands of dollars for temp. stakes online, or in real life or with prop bets, etc. etc. Happens all the time.

[Bonified]

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It's the same thing as pros transferring thousands of dollars for temp. stakes online, or in real life or with prop bets, etc. etc. Happens all the time.

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Yes. And the reason this usually works is that defaulters get a very bad name. For anyone who thinks that it's all just two hustlers pitting their wits against each other, this is why Ram is taking much more heat for "welshing" than Phil is for "lying".

[PairTheBoard]

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So two main questions in Arbitration are, Did Phil say that he "hasn’t been playing either" when he actually had been playing a lot and improving? And did he withhold the information that, "his partner and coach had obviously been playing a lot and had improved a few shots" in violation of the Gentleman's Friendship Agreement to provide all pertinent information when deciding the spot?


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Hang on, we've only got Ram's word that this Gentleman's Friendship Agreement was what governed the situation.



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Right. The "in violation" phrase would in fact be the crucial one to be determined in Arbiration. What constitutes "violation"? What really was the nature of the "Gentleman's Agreement"? I think reasonable Arbitrators could conclude that the Gentleman's Agreement was not as clear cut as Ram claims. The Conditions of the Gentleman's Agreement are in practice a bit fuzzy. In practice, they tend to vary according to the relationship between the players.

The case could be made that within the Gentleman's Agreement a player only has to provide a certain somewhat fuzzy level of "adequate" truthful information that provides his opponents an opportunity to glean a judgement as to what he's getting into. According to Barry G, Ivey met that condition by telling Ram he had recently shot a score in the low 90's (92 was it?).

It could also be held that even within the Gentleman's agreement, players are expected to hem and haw, poor-mouthing their prospects. Assuming he said it, Ivey's "I haven't been playing either" could be considered part of this poor-mouthing which everybody is expected to do. Technically, I suppose it could even be considered a True Statement. Maybe Ivey hadn't played That Morning. It's up to his opponents to press him further on the question and have it clarified.

I suspect this "I haven't been playing recently" is a common type poor-mouth. It's up to Ram to press the issue. "No. You don't understand. I REALLY haven't played for the last several months. When was the last time you played? How many times have you played or practiced in the last several months? What scores have you shot? What have your gambling results been?" ETC. It's up to Ram to thoroughly Vet that information. If he fails to do so, he is falling down on his job in the negotiations.

The case could be made that the Gentleman's Agreement does not require that Ivey talk Ram out of being stupid. Assuming Ram was told about Ivey's recent score in the low 90's, and that Ram had the opportunity to question Ivey more closely about Ivey and his partner's recent play, Ram's failure to adequately negotiate these factors was just stupidity on Ram's part.

Furthermore, this was not a Freezeout. Ram continued to beat his head against these odds for 72 holes when he could have walked off at any time with no loss of face.

Considering how "Fuzzy" this whole Gentleman's Agreement thing is compared to the Fundamental Sacred Inviolate Unquestionable Point of Honor among Gamblers to NEVER WELCH ON A BET I'm afraid Ram's position looks pretty weak here.

PairTheBoard

[PairTheBoard]

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The fact that the Group of Arbitrators, despite possibly being weighted in Ivey's favor, suggested the outcome of the wagers be adjusted indicates that . . .

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What are you talking about? Where are you getting this "Group of Arbitrators" stuff from?

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As I read the story, Phil and Ram talked about putting the question to Arbitration. They met at a Tourny where Phil had gathered some people, including Barry G, to possibly act as Arbitrators. As I understood it, the Group made the suggestion that an adjustment be made to what Ram owed. I was trying to look at the implications of such a suggestion, assuming that's what actually happened. If that's not the way it happened then the implications I observed for it it are void and purely theoretical.

Furthermore, I ammended my original ideas for the implications to include the possibility for a reasonable settlement of less than the Full Amount.

btw, I don't really care about any of this one way or the other. I don't know any of these guys from Adam. I'm just trying to look at the principles involved.

PairTheBoard

[Peter McDermott]

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As I read the story, Phil and Ram talked about putting the question to Arbitration.

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Perhaps they're struggling to identify an arbitrator because neither side can negotiate an acceptable edge? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[PairTheBoard]

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As I read the story, Phil and Ram talked about putting the question to Arbitration.

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Perhaps they're struggling to identify an arbitrator because neither side can negotiate an acceptable edge? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Yea. This case kind of boils down to That Irony doesn't it? Are we really expected to believe this idea that on the basis of "Friendship" these guys are really trying to find the perfectly fair spot where nobody has an edge? They are all Professional Gamblers. They are All playing the match with the belief that They have the edge.

I suspect Ivey never dreamed he was getting as big an edge as it turned out to be. I once played golf nearly every day for about a year. I practiced and struggled to get better. I played on a 6600 yard Par 71 course after hours for $2 a round. I slowly worked my way down into the low 80's. Every day, week-in and week-out I strugled to shoot in the low 80's.Then I broke 80.

Suddenly, much to my suprise I found myself in the midst of rounds where I was challenging par. Even Under Par sometimes. My short game was fantastic. Great touch. I was amazed. It was incredible. I could never have predicted it. Had I been playing for money prior to shooting those rounds I would have insisted the spot be based on the scores around 80 which I had been shooting consistently for some time. When I made the breakthrough with the hot round in the low 70's I would have figured I finally caught a lucky break. There's no way to predict when that breakthrough is going to come. That's Golf.

PairTheBoard

[Lurker.]

if ram does not pay this bet, what will be the reprucussions for him, and also in the gambling world period?

[wisehandpoker]

I was told tonight that three arbiters were chosen with Ram and Goodwin giving their word to abide by their ruling. The same source said the arbiters ruled 3-0 in Ivey's favor. No word on whether they actually came through with the payment.

All three guys are still alive in the WPT Championship. Could be fun.

[moving shapes]

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if ram does not pay this bet, what will be the reprucussions for him, and also in the gambling world period?

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less fingers