"Jesus" advises Yang to stiff dealers?

[Mitch Evans]

[ QUOTE ]
Again, if they left tipping up to the discretion of the players (i.e., buyin+fee no withholding) would/did you make more money?

I believe that my personality and skills earn my pay so i would like to think that if that happened i would do ok. i will say tho that i would seriously consider not working that event if it was set that way. The nature of my job gives me that freedom to be able to say no and just sit that one out but still have other options to fill the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I just think that these days there are more lay people winning events and are more likely to tip better than people who play for a living. I understand why Becky decided to withhold a percentage for dealers (even though she stiffed the dealers the first year) and that's because pros look at it as giving away their next car or whatever. But with more Yangs winning and no one (CF) to tell them the dealers are taken care of (that happens with every newbie's big win) perhaps the tokes would be larger. I don't know...

Anyway, thanks for sharing your insight. You've been forth coming, I believe, and regardless of what anyone thinks either way on the debate, you have given everyone a clearer idea of dealer wages/situation at the wsop than any other dealer has in previous years.

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say that I feel that if Mr. Yang knew that he gave $122.20 to the dealers ($174.60 total for the entire staff tip), that he would've given more, if not much more. Even 1-2 percent of 4.5 million (sans tax and 10 percent charity donation) could've meant an additional 50k gratuity).

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Does Jerry know that he tipped the staff about $175 off his his 4.5 mil take home prize?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many problems with your original post in this thread, but this one is the most glaring.

Tips are based on the entry fees, not the prize money won.

You can't have it both ways. You can't first claim that Yang "only" tipped $120 to the dealers (based on his entry fee), THEN claim that he should have tipped more because he won so much money (based on his prize money).

The $122 is deducted from every entry fee, which means that the 90% of the players who didn't cash are tipping $122 on zero winnings. They are the ones who drive the overall tips in the neighborhood of $700,000. This is done on purpose to ensure the most possible tips for the dealers.

If Harrah's just made tips optional, then only the cashers would tip, and I would venture a guess that the average would be less than 1.8% of the overall winnings.

To repeat, the tips are based on the entry fees, NOT the prize money. Therefore, it's not fair to claim that Yang owes a portion of his prize money, because that's not how the tips were calculated.

Tipping by the event winner is a nice thing. If you do it, good for you. But it doesn't mean that NOT tipping is bad. It's like someone choosing to donate a portion of the winnings to charity, like Yang is doing. It's a nice thing to do. Does it create some sort of expectation or obligation that the next ME winner will donate 10% of his winnings to charity? ABSOLUTELY NOT. And it doesn't make anyone who doesn't, or who advises the winner not to, a jerk.

The entire 6,300 person pool tipped the dealers very generously, as the calculations have shown. The dealers have nothing to bitch about, and Yang was not "misled" by Ferguson. Anyone who says anything negative about Ferguson's actions here is a douchebag, and after all the dealer whining on here, count me as another guy who will never leave extra tips for the dealers if I am fortunate to cash in a live tourney.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]


I'm not sure that basing it on what we perceive the dealers to make is consistent with how we tip any other endeavor.



[/ QUOTE ]

Most tip because they know the service provider is working for MinWage+Tips.

If you told someone that their waiter was making $45 an hour in wages before tips, would they tip?

The Harrah's 1.8% takeout is effectively subsidizing the dealers and staff wages. So, instead of the $6+ per hour they make in "wages", they are getting $X per hour.

If your local B&M actually paid the dealers $35 an hour, would you tip $1 a hand?

[pig4bill]

[ QUOTE ]
Yet again we are not recieving 1.8%, over 700 dealers are sharing 65% of that 1.8%(I have been told now that the chip runners are getting 5% of our share) And atleast i can admit im no good with numbers :O)

[/ QUOTE ]

Chip runners for the main event? That's hard to believe.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
Alot of you out there calling me greedy need to understand that because i choose to work the circuit for harrahs and travel with them, I have to pay all my own expenses, my own health care and we only work about 2 weeks every month. We depend on the WSOP to make up for the rest of the year to keep us all fed till January. This 45 days of hard work is atleast 2/3 of most of our incomes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmmm.....
With all those expenses, I hope you make at least $67.5K a year.
So 2/3 of that would be $45K from the WSOP.
For 45 days of hard work.
$1000 a day.

But if you are making $33.7K a year, before expenses, that makes it $500 a day.

Or am I using "misleading" numbers?

[DrewDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
p,

"Next, we do not get paid by the hour this year, we get paid by downs (each table we deal), we do get an hourly $6.41 from harrahs."

"means that we should only recieve $214 for 11 days of work? Hmmm that doesnt sound to good to me."

"Now We started the main this year with over 700 dealers"

OK, so let's work out the math here.

There were 700 dealers involved in dealing during the 11 days of the ME.

These dealers split the following:

Hourly rate of $6.41
$60,000,000 * 1.8% * 65% = $702,000
Tips when dealing cash games
Additional tip pool from other tourneys during this time

So, a dealer who dealt 8 hours a day over these 11 days would make about $1565 [$564 ($6.41 * 8 * 11) + $1,000 (700k/700)] PLUS tips they received while dealing at cash games.

Is that correct, p? Please correct the assumptions regarding how many downs the average dealer dealt in tournament and cash games.

The way many reasonable posters on this forum approach this issue is to think about whether or not the dealers are getting paid a fair wage when all things are taken into account.

The numbers make it look like dealers are getting paid far more than the $214 you thought you would get paid, more like in the $1500-2000 range.

Do you feel like the actual numbers are fair compensation for this period? If not, what would you consider reasonable compensation to expect for dealing the WSOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

But is this the proper way to think about how much we should tip? On occaision my wife and I go out to a very nice dinner. We drop about $150 on the meal. Takes us about an hour and a half. A twenty percent tip would be $30 dollars.

Do we then go, wait a second, suppose the waiter covers five tables at a time. $150 per table probably would be low as an average, since many tables have more than two people dining. Figure over the course of six hours or so the waiter covers 20 tables. Why the waiter is getting $600 dollars for a six hour shift or $100 dollars an hour. Even assuming some of that is shared with the hostess and busboys that's an outrageous amount! Why, I'll just leave an eight dollar tip, the same as I do for the waitress at Outback - that's a much more reasonable earn for the waiter.

I don't do that - Instead I pony up my thirty dollar tip and take my wife home for the good 'ole sack time.

I think the question of whether to tip an additional amount when there is already tip taken out is a valid one. I'm not sure that basing it on what we perceive the dealers to make is consistent with how we tip any other endeavor.

--Zetack

[/ QUOTE ]

This analogy should be taken out and shot.

Start over, only this time the restaurant adds 18% of every check as an automatic gratuity. Now how much do you leave?

The whiny dealers and people who don't think this is the "proper way to think about how much we tip" should take it up with Harrah's, NOT Yang and/or Ferguson.

[W brad]

Chris Ferguson is a good person to ask about windfall management. Notice how in this video, Chris keeps his bracelets in a safe deposit box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcBGB6j8-RI

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yet again we are not recieving 1.8%, over 700 dealers are sharing 65% of that 1.8%(I have been told now that the chip runners are getting 5% of our share) And atleast i can admit im no good with numbers :O)

[/ QUOTE ]

Chip runners for the main event? That's hard to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it even harder to believe how dealers think that they are the only ones entitled to tips. The bitterness that floorpeople and chip runners get tips too is simply astounding to me.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yet again we are not recieving 1.8%, over 700 dealers are sharing 65% of that 1.8%(I have been told now that the chip runners are getting 5% of our share) And atleast i can admit im no good with numbers :O)

[/ QUOTE ]

Chip runners for the main event? That's hard to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it even harder to believe how dealers think that they are the only ones entitled to tips. The bitterness that floorpeople and chip runners get tips too is simply astounding to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where this bitterness comes from (historically, maybe it has been addressed) is that after a big win the winners will often tips members of the floor staff. The they get to keep 100% of this plus 35% (I think the number has switched to 30% in recent years) of the money for the dealers.

[pkrporcupine]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yet again we are not recieving 1.8%, over 700 dealers are sharing 65% of that 1.8%(I have been told now that the chip runners are getting 5% of our share) And atleast i can admit im no good with numbers :O)

[/ QUOTE ]

Chip runners for the main event? That's hard to believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it even harder to believe how dealers think that they are the only ones entitled to tips. The bitterness that floorpeople and chip runners get tips too is simply astounding to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
<font color="red"> what bitterness is that exactly? i am extreemly interested in how you get bitterness from that post </font>