Ram Vaswani speaks about that 'Golf Game'.

[MrTimCaum]

As day 1 of the WPT 25k ended a few hours ago, I was standing near the cashier and Ivey and Vaswani were there in what I'd describe as a "semi-heated" converstaion for a few moments, and then they walked off together toward the western end of the property.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
It is hard or me to believe how gullible the people on here and on the Hendonmob forum are. Someone trying to get out of a debt comes up with a reason not to pay, and so many of you bought it.

1. Phil never lied to them. And he didn't shoot better than he said he would. He putted well, but hit the ball worse. He shot in the 90's as expected.

2. Erick Lindgren gave Phil 10 shots during the summer. He now gives Phil 8 shots. They played even in a nine-hole TV match in Australia, and Erick clobbered Phil. When Mark and Ram asked Erick if they ever played even, he admitted they had, but he made sure that Ram knew that he was a much better golfer than Phil. That conveniently got left out of Ram's post.

3. Mark and Ram beat Phil five times in a row. The last time was in Barcelona where Phil lost six of the first seven holes and then walked off the course. Ram says Phil lost only $34,000, which is hard to do playing in increments of three different $10,000 bets per hole. (Two individual bets and a team bet.) Ram forgot to mention that the reason they are not much ahead of Phil is that Phil won most of the money back at Chinese Poker.

4. After they played the first nine holes in Australia, they made a small adjustment in the match, and Ram and Mark asked for a contract. (A contract means no more adjustments while in Austrailia.) They continued for a total of 72 holes. (Mark didn't finish the last nine.) At what point, should they have taken responsibility for their loss? Or is it OK to play to try to win money back, and not pay if you lose?

6. Except for nine holes where Mark parred seven holes, as expected, since he is nearly a scratch golfer, I don't think Mark shot less than 45, where his average was expected to be 38. And Ram, who was supposed to be better than Phil, was having trouble breaking 100 for 18 holes.

7. If $140,000 had been won instead of $1,400,000, the money would have been paid and a new match would have been negotiated. As Benny Binion once said, "I usually find that people are honorable as long as they can afford to be."

8. I was not brought in as an arbitrator or to fight Phil's battles. Phil wanted me to show up because he said, "You're never going to believe what they have to say. Their whole argument is that since they didn't realize they were clear underdogs in the match, the match should be voided."

9. Phil usually tells me about his matches. I invariably tell him he is an underdog. He always says he likes to win as the underdog by being tougher under pressure, and if he loses he will practice and get better and eventually win the money back.

10. The reason Phil has never defended himself is that he is a private person, and he didn't even know these forums existed until I told him about what was being posted. I have a feeling Phil may have someting to say or write once this is settled.

I can't believe that this thread has gotten so big, starting from a false hypothesis.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

Although Barry claims, "Phil never lied", I notice Barry never specifically addressed the main bones of contention for Ram,

[ QUOTE ]
Ram -
I explain I would be playing a lot worse than any of our previous games due to the fact that I hadn’t been playing since the end of the English summer and that I didn’t have my clubs. So I ask for 4 shots. Phil then replies that he hasn’t been playing either so we should be playing off the same handicaps as before further implying that he would be playing worse as well

[/ QUOTE ]

and

[ QUOTE ]
Ram -
Phil also forgets to mention something that no one has talked about so far which is that that his partner and coach had obviously been playing a lot and had improved a few shots

[/ QUOTE ]

So two main questions in Arbitration are, Did Phil say that he "hasn’t been playing either" when he actually had been playing a lot and improving? And did he withhold the information that, "his partner and coach had obviously been playing a lot and had improved a few shots" in violation of the Gentleman's Friendship Agreement to provide all pertinent information when deciding the spot?

If they played with the old spot when Ram was insisting they adjust it to compensate for his being rusty from lack of recent play, you have to wonder exactly what Ivey did say to talk him out of that adjustment. Did he say "he hadn't been playing either", when the truth was he had not only been playing a lot but also improving a lot?

PairTheBoard

[Peter McDermott]

[ QUOTE ]
As day 1 of the WPT 25k ended a few hours ago, I was standing near the cashier and Ivey and Vaswani were there in what I'd describe as a "semi-heated" converstaion for a few moments, and then they walked off together toward the western end of the property.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no sex that's as great as make-up sex...

[Peter McDermott]

[ QUOTE ]

So two main questions in Arbitration are, Did Phil say that he "hasn’t been playing either" when he actually had been playing a lot and improving? And did he withhold the information that, "his partner and coach had obviously been playing a lot and had improved a few shots" in violation of the Gentleman's Friendship Agreement to provide all pertinent information when deciding the spot?


[/ QUOTE ]

Hang on, we've only got Ram's word that this Gentleman's Friendship Agreement was what governed the situation.

But even if it does, then given that Ram and Mark had been paid when they beat Ivey, then my idea of a Gentleman's Friendship means that when you lose, you PAY YOUR [censored] DEBTS.

YMMV.

[barryg1]

There are semantic differences.

1. Phil said he hadn't been playing much because he only played once in the last few weeks. Apparently, Ram hadn't played in four months. Phil's partner may have gotten into better form, but he had been counted on as a scratch golfer in the match.

2. Ram claims he trusted Phil to make a fair match, and he expected Phil to adjust for the fact that Ram was much worse than he was during the summer. Also, Ram was not using his own clubs. Normally after you have played 20 rounds with someone you try to negotiate the best you can. (Ram had played 20 rounds with Phil. Mark had played about 50.) Phil definitely thought he was a favorite in the match, as he also felt the last five times he lost.

This was the perfect storm. Ram and Mark were overspotting and played badly. They initially blamed themselves until other people mentioned that Phil had improved by 10 shots. Actually, Phil had improved 10 shots in the last 12 months, which is expected of person in his second year of golf, playing several times a week. But he was only two shots better than when they played four months previously.

As for them being friends, I doubt Ram or Marc know Phil's wife's name or any of his other friends. They are gambling adversaries. I met Ram and Marc for the first time on the golf couse last summer.

Although I have posted in support of Phil, I believe that Ram feels he was wronged. I mainly base this on the fact that many people on both sides of the pond have told me that he is an honorable person.

Barry

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that the Group of Arbitrators, despite possibly being weighted in Ivey's favor, suggested the outcome of the wagers be adjusted indicates that . . .

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What are you talking about? Where are you getting this "Group of Arbitrators" stuff from?

[Rushmore]

[ QUOTE ]
There are semantic differences.

1. Phil said he hadn't been playing much because he only played once in the last few weeks. Apparently, Ram hadn't played in four months. Phil's partner may have gotten into better form, but he had been counted on as a scratch golfer in the match.

2. Ram claims he trusted Phil to make a fair match, and he expected Phil to adjust for the fact that Ram was much worse than he was during the summer. Also, Ram was not using his own clubs. Normally after you have played 20 rounds with someone you try to negotiate the best you can. (Ram had played 20 rounds with Phil. Mark had played about 50.) Phil definitely thought he was a favorite in the match, as he also felt the last five times he lost.

This was the perfect storm. Ram and Mark were overspotting and played badly. They initially blamed themselves until other people mentioned that Phil had improved by 10 shots. Actually, Phil had improved 10 shots in the last 12 months, which is expected of person in his second year of golf, playing several times a week. But he was only two shots better than when they played four months previously.

As for them being friends, I doubt Ram or Marc know Phil's wife's name or any of his other friends. They are gambling adversaries. I met Ram and Marc for the first time on the golf couse last summer.

Although I have posted in support of Phil, I believe that Ram feels he was wronged. I mainly base this on the fact that many people on both sides of the pond have told me that he is an honorable person.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

This last paragraph is important. There are plenty of people excoriating Vaswani for his apparently willful freeroll, and it would appear they are wrong for doing so.

This doesn't mitigate the fact that it is unconscionably ignorant to play this big, get slaughtered, not have fully understood the scenario, and not pay, but at least it is not (by Barry's apparent estimation) a flat-out welching situation.

If Ram is "an honorable person," he will likely heed the growing consensus that he is in the wrong.

Of course, if he only reads the Hendon Mob forums, then he will be unaware of that consensus.

[knifeandfork]

so does this mean that PI will no longer be a bl to hustle corey pavin with that scrambled red tees bet?

[uter]

ok i've read only a fraction of this, but as a golf outsider, [and maybe this is just too obvious of a question] -
does anyone else maybe agree that this whole 'honor system' of betting among professional gamblers is REALLY REALLY STUPID?

[Butso]

Post deleted by Butso