How do you control the pot OOP?

[dardo]

Any king is calling all they way down. Go ahead and fire the third bullet. Beaware, though, of raises and min-raises.

regards,

dardo

[DWarrior]

How relevant are those vpip and wtsd stats? If you only have 100 or less hands on him, the wtsd isn't that relevant.

That being said, there's no reason to control the pot against a fish. Value bet TPTK on every street and reevaluate only if he starts to play back. That's pretty much how I would play the hand, and I'd bet $40-$45 on the river. Without any reads, I think I make a crying call if he raises.

Also, is a PSB more optimal than a 3/4 pot bet on this flop?

[NaobisDad]

I don't think you'll ever have enough hands on your opponent to make your stats reliable enough. They are an indication, and they make a heck of better picture of your opponent compared to what you'd do without. Especially multitabling. If anything you'llh ave an indication of his/her tendencies during this session at this table.

As a matter of fact, I wish I could get this stuff programmed in my scull to use live.

[Fallen Hero]

[ QUOTE ]
We have to judge in any given situation whether pot control>value or value>pot control. We can't have both.

On a board like this, where getting it AI seems okay... we choose value>pot control. If the flop is A34 with a flush draw and the turn is a 2 for a 3-flush... well, pot control>value.

Maybe I am way wrong though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong? I think our main dilemma should be protection vs pot control, so in a draw heavy board we have to be less concerned about pot control.

[twang]

Uh, I really suck at these supposed to be easy hands. That said, I think the main thing in a hand like this (generally speaking) is to give villain the opportunity to make the biggest mistakes possible, as often as possible. I don't think making big bets (~pot) on the flop and the turn accomplish that.

But hey, if you trust your read ("superfish") I don't see why pot, pot, pot wouldn't work.

Oh, and 5th street is a bit late to start worrying about pot control, IMHO.

[Heine]

what about a sort of blocking bet on the river? say about $20 or so? That seems to make the most sense and what I probably would end up doing. Would that be ok too?

[twang]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We have to judge in any given situation whether pot control>value or value>pot control. We can't have both.

On a board like this, where getting it AI seems okay... we choose value>pot control. If the flop is A34 with a flush draw and the turn is a 2 for a 3-flush... well, pot control>value.

Maybe I am way wrong though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong? I think our main dilemma should be protection vs pot control, so in a draw heavy board we have to be less concerned about pot control.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the "whys" are getting a bit mixed up with the actual action here. On a draw heavy board you stick your money in there to protect a made hand. On a drawless board you bet for value. Could be the exact same amount of $$$ though. And on an extremely dry board, like the hand in question, pot control = value, because a weak king usually don't call down all the way if you pot-pot-pot.

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
On a draw heavy board you stick your money in there to protect a made hand. On a drawless board you bet for value. Could be the exact same amount of $$$ though. And on an extremely dry board, like the hand in question, pot control = value, because a weak king usually don't call down all the way if you pot-pot-pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your logic for most villains, but this villain is a loose maniac-type. His MO is to call down with worse hands or raise with air on the turn or river to steal the pot. TPTK is the near nuts here.

If OP would have said villain is a sold TAG who will float and raise c-bets then this hand is VERY difficult (and expensive) to play OOP.

[Skuzzy]

YOU don't control the pot when OOP, your opponent does. That's why being OOP sucks.

Lesson: position = control. In any game be it chess, backgammon, gin, poker, pool you need the initiative, you want your opponent reacting to you, you don't want to be reacting to him, you need to be controlling the game if you want to win. Control is everything.



Dwarrior if he has 100 hands on villain then villain PAID to see 60 flops and went a showdown 24 times. That's plenty good enough for me. If he was tight like 20%VP$IP and 40%WTSD that's 20 flops and 8 showdowns. For a tight player it is possible he has hit some good cards and got lucky and these numbers are way off, but for a very loose player his stats represent his play much more accurately much more quickly.

[JackAll]

I would bet 1/2 pot on the river for the following reasons:
1. Value. TPTK is pretty nice in my books.
2. Fish chase a lot of things, and they will pay you off with AQ, AJ and sometimes even worse kicker.
3. If you check, they might bet pot or all-in and you don't know if it's a bluff or not. If you bet and they raise, fold and you know you folded correctly.

From my experience, if you half pot it on the river:
-1/4 of the time they fold anyway cuz they were chasing
-1/2 of the time they pay you with something you beat like TPCK or lower pair
-1/4 of the time they beat you and you need the discipline to fold if they raise even when the pot is so big.


However, I'm still curious about how to control pot size OOP in a raised pot.

And how much of it is the board. For example, if a 4 flush draw comes out on the turn, often players who hit and players who don't both don't bet a lot since hitters don't want it too obvious and non-hitters don't want to grow the pot, so that kinda works on its own. So I guess it's generally dependent on the board, reads and how hand has played so far?