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#21
03-21-2006, 04:07 PM
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Re: Are we all really gonna die ?
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, we will all die. We will die in different circumstances though. Some will die in their sleep, that is they simply will not wake up. Some will die in terrifying , horrible and painful circumstances. Some will die with a sense of relief, perhaps in dignity thru euthanasia, having had enough of life. Some will be desperate to delay death by another instant. But at the end we will all be dead, then forgotten, and our lives will soon become totally inconsequential to humanity or even the universe. "ave, munde, morituri te salutant" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Sorry Mid, I can't let your subtle plug for euthanasia slip in there without response. I argue there is zero dignity in the act. My reasoning stems from the below, which is what the Catholic Church teaches: [ QUOTE ] 2276 Those whose lives are diminished or weakened deserve special respect. Sick or handicapped persons should be helped to lead lives as normal as possible. 2277 Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick or dying persons. It is morally unacceptable. Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator. The error of judgement into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded. 2278 Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of 'over-zealous' treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one's inability to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected. 2279 Even if death is thought imminent, the ordinary care owed to a sick person cannot be legitimately interrupted. The use of painkillers to alleviate the sufferings of the dying, even at the risk of shortening their days, can be morally in conformity with human dignity if death is not willed as either an end or a means, but only foreseen and tolerated as inevitable. Palliative care is a special form of disinterested charity. As such it should be encouraged. [/ QUOTE ] 
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#22
03-21-2006, 04:23 PM
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Re: Are we all really gonna die ?
John Paul the Great's take on death is fantastic:
[ QUOTE ] Christ Conquers the Evil of Death by Pope John Paul II It is the same when we deal with death. It is often awaited even as a liberation from the suffering of this life. At the same time, it is not possible to ignore the fact that it constitutes as it were a definitive summing-up of the destructive work both in the bodily organism and in the psyche. But death primarily involves the dissolution of the entire psychophysical personality of man. The soul survives and subsists separated from the body, while the body is subjected to gradual decomposition according to the words of the Lord God, pronounced after the sin committed by man at the beginning of his earthly history: "You are dust and to dust you shall return." Therefore, even if death is not a form of suffering in the temporal sense of the word, even if in a certain way it is beyond all forms of suffering, at the same time the evil which the human being experiences in death has a definitive and total character. By His salvific work, the only-begotten Son liberates man from sin and death. First of all He blots out from human history the dominion of sin, which took root under the influence of the evil spirit beginning with original sin, and then He gives man the possibility of living in sanctifying grace. In the wake of His victory over sin, He also takes away the dominion of death, by His resurrection beginning the process of the future resurrection of the body. Both are essential conditions of "eternal life," that is, of man's definitive happiness in union with God; this means, for the saved, that in the eschatological perspective suffering is totally blotted out. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From section 15. of John Paul II's Apostolic Letter Salvifici Doloris, 11 February 1984. Electronic text (c) Copyright EWTN 1997. All rights reserved. [/ QUOTE ]
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#23
03-21-2006, 04:38 PM
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My number is due
[ QUOTE ]
If you (or your consciousness or sense of self-awareness, to look at it another way) can emerge from non-existence to existence once, why couldn't it happen again? [/ QUOTE ]Come on. I've heard stronger arguments by the freaks at the roulette table.
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#24
03-21-2006, 05:05 PM
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Re: Are we all really gonna die ?
Heya bigdaddydvo,
[ QUOTE ] Sorry Mid, I can't let your subtle plug for euthanasia slip in there without response. I argue there is zero dignity in the act. My reasoning stems from the below, which is what the Catholic Church teaches: [/ QUOTE ] I accept that as your and your church opinion without any difficulty. And I accept your right not to take the choice of voluntary euthanasia. What I do not accept is for you to try to take my right away away, and will fight for it.. My close ones know my views and the conditions under which this will happen and I am sure they will not stand in the way. We do speak about it every so often, to ensure that everyone is clear about my intentions. Where I live it is not quite legal. However there is information available on how to go about it in a dignified way. I have purchased the appropriate books, and euthanasia is planned for me altough it is not expected for a few years yet. We are back to staying in our own lanes and respecting each other choices. I respect yours and wish you the best.
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#25
03-21-2006, 05:32 PM
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Re: Are we all really gonna die ?
Why is it horrible? You don't even know what happens to people that die, do you? You are sweating what is essentially a fantasy image of the future.
You are correct that everyone will die someday, but you have no idea what day that will be. It might be 100 years from now or it might be in the next few minutes. In the meantime, you are not enjoying your life as much as you could because you are worried about death. At least when it comes you won't be feeling that anxiety anymore. Alternatively, you could experience the present and enjoy yourself right now. Good luck.
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#26
03-21-2006, 06:01 PM
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Re: Are we all really gonna die ?
[ QUOTE ]
George W Bush, Rove . . . everybody is gonna die. In a hundred years there will be no one reading this still alive. Not even the memory he even existed maybe. Isn't there something that can be done? This is too horrible. [/ QUOTE ] It's not THAT horrible. Yes, I know. I expect a visit from the Secret Service any time now. It's a joke, people!
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#27
03-21-2006, 07:36 PM
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Re: My number is due
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If you (or your consciousness or sense of self-awareness, to look at it another way) can emerge from non-existence to existence once, why couldn't it happen again? [/ QUOTE ]Come on. I've heard stronger arguments by the freaks at the roulette table. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not arguing FOR something, Cyrus; rather, I'm pointing out that some of your presumptions just might be wrong, and I'm basing that on established precedent.
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#28
03-21-2006, 11:36 PM
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Re: My number is due
Guys, we all have the heat-death of the universe to look forward to.
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#29
03-22-2006, 03:43 AM
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Re: My number is due
[ QUOTE ]
Guys, we all have the heat-death of the universe to look forward to. [/ QUOTE ] If a Big Bang created the universe, perhaps out of "nothing", why couldn't something similar create or re-create a universe after the heat-death? The fact that the universe exists now carries some weight--just as the fact that consciousness exists now carries some weight. A pattern of indefinite nothingness followed by relatively brief existence and consciousness, followed by eternal nothingness, does not appear a more likely pattern than a pattern of some sort of recurrence or a pattern of continuity albeit with transformations included. The latter too would seem to fit with the principle that energy cannot be lost, it can only be transformed.
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#30
03-22-2006, 05:24 AM
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Re: My number is due
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Guys, we all have the heat-death of the universe to look forward to. [/ QUOTE ] If a Big Bang created the universe, perhaps out of "nothing", why couldn't something similar create or re-create a universe after the heat-death? The fact that the universe exists now carries some weight--just as the fact that consciousness exists now carries some weight. A pattern of indefinite nothingness followed by relatively brief existence and consciousness, followed by eternal nothingness, does not appear a more likely pattern than a pattern of some sort of recurrence or a pattern of continuity albeit with transformations included. The latter too would seem to fit with the principle that energy cannot be lost, it can only be transformed. [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps nothingness does not/has not ever existed.
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