Something you guys dont do enough

[thejoe1989]

I dont think some people get the point that the optimal shoving range doesn't have to only include hands that are profitable when called (the whole AA and JTo thing...) The disparity between a short stack's raising range and calling range should change our shoving range (duh)

What we are looking for is an optimal game theory shoving range based on a couple different ranges that makes it so that the shortstack will lose the same ammount whether he calls or fold

This means if he is openning a large range we push more bluffs, knowing that the times we get called we may be behind.

I know most of this is common knowledge, but to the people who think that the OP is flawed because of the top/bottom of the range thing, i think you should reexamine your thought processes about why it was flawed.

[dagreez]

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if we're making money with AA, losing money with JTo, and making money on net then our range is still bad.

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if we're making money on net, cause he's folding a decent amount, given his attempt to steal is fairly high which was stated in op, how is our range still bad?

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We make more money if we don't shove hands that are -EV on their own. Good point, raise it in the SSNL thread if you want.

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So shorty's raising 40% of his hands but only calling with the top 13% right...

27/40 = 67.5%, so 67.5% of the time this situation comes up he folds and we win his 3.5BB's + SB + BB for 5BB. 67.5% of 5BB = 3.375BB

The other 32.5% of the time, when he does call shove (13/40) we still have 33.19% equity and we win a 41.5BB pot. .3319 * 41.5 = 13.77 -----> 32.5% of 13.77 = 4.47525

3.375BB + 4.47525BB = 7.85025

Now 67.5% of the time he's gonna lose his 3.5BB when he folds to our shove. 67.5% * -3.5BB = -2.3625

And 32.5% of the time he gets it in with 66.810% equity. 32.5% of (.66810 * 41.5BB = 27.27615) is = to 9.011.

9.011 - 2.3625 = 6.648.

7.85025 > 6.648

I'm not sure exactly what those numbers represent but ours is bigger.

[MyTurn2Raise]

agree with the OP to some extent, but be ready for shortstackers to adjust

in the first lesson of shortstacking that I posted, I talked about the same restealing stuff as something the successful shortstacker has to know

[skier_5]

also, thinking about this some more, given that we lose money on some hands the shortstacker has to increase his range which gets our big money making hands called more often (and increases our equity with our [censored] hands) so it may not be completely correct that we can only anaylze the bottom end of the range and determine if those hands show a profit.

[Triumph36]

DON'T POST THIS MORE PEOPLE WILL BECOME SHORTSTACKS OMGOMOGMOGMG

awesome post skier - i am bad at math so i never did this.

[ImsaKidd]

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also, thinking about this some more, given that we lose money on some hands the shortstacker has to increase his range which gets our big money making hands called more often (and increases our equity with our [censored] hands) so it may not be completely correct that we can only anaylze the bottom end of the range and determine if those hands show a profit.

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Good luck w/ analyzing this spot using game theory. You will go through a bazillion iterations of ranges, it sucks ass.

I spent prolly 2 hours on it b4 giving up.

[dchz]

damn it i was thinking about writing this up for my senior thesis....

looks like it's gonna be plagerized after i read this post [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[skier_5]

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also, thinking about this some more, given that we lose money on some hands the shortstacker has to increase his range which gets our big money making hands called more often (and increases our equity with our [censored] hands) so it may not be completely correct that we can only anaylze the bottom end of the range and determine if those hands show a profit.

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Good luck w/ analyzing this spot using game theory. You will go through a bazillion iterations of ranges, it sucks ass.

I spent prolly 2 hours on it b4 giving up.

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hey a thread you can contribute too [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Isura]

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also, thinking about this some more, given that we lose money on some hands the shortstacker has to increase his range which gets our big money making hands called more often (and increases our equity with our [censored] hands) so it may not be completely correct that we can only anaylze the bottom end of the range and determine if those hands show a profit.

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Good luck w/ analyzing this spot using game theory. You will go through a bazillion iterations of ranges, it sucks ass.

I spent prolly 2 hours on it b4 giving up.

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2 hours LOL

[schwza]

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also, thinking about this some more, given that we lose money on some hands the shortstacker has to increase his range which gets our big money making hands called more often (and increases our equity with our [censored] hands) so it may not be completely correct that we can only anaylze the bottom end of the range and determine if those hands show a profit.

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yeah, this is true. that was the "(maybe a few more hands for meta)" bit at the end of my last post b/c i didn't feel like getting into it.

honestly i think the more interesting question is about deciding when to reraise a shorty when you are not in the bb and there are other normal stacks left to act.

but it's ok, stars will make all tables "deep stacked" (min 50 bbs and max 100) soon. *prays*