|
|
#21
03-06-2006, 05:34 PM
|
|||
|
|||
Re: 5/10 J6s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] IMO, those that are saying to fold pre-flop play wayyy too tight from the blinds. [/ QUOTE ] Ditto. It's 5 handed. If you don't call this, are you folding your suited cards from the SB, when you should be completing? It's the same idea. - Zach [/ QUOTE ] How is paying half a small bet the same as calling a raise directly from your right (and who will then always bet after you) for a full small bet? And it's only 4 handed. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, noticed it was only 4 handed. Converter must have screwed up. Anyways. According to SSHE, we are supposed to complete the SB with any two suited cards, right? In a standard 2/4 game, an unraised pot should see 4/5 to the flop (I'm pulling that out of my ass, based on my observations from playing it). So we are calling getting like 9-1 ish from the SB, completing. In the BB, with the raise, we are getting effectively 7-1 on this call, 4 handed, unless the limpers fold for some reason (which RARELY happens, obviously). We also have great relative position on the PFR, and we are in a good spot to c/r to protect our hand on a favorable flop. We can also lead out with a FD, hoping he raises from LP, building a pot for us. - Zach 
|
|
#22
03-06-2006, 05:34 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: 5/10 J6s
[ QUOTE ]
This is probably among the best posts I have ever read. I haven't been here for long, so that's not saying THAT much, but still. To the casual low limit player, this advice could be priceless. [/ QUOTE ] Get used to it from him. -McGee
|
|
#23
03-06-2006, 05:41 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: 5/10 J6s
I'm curious now if anybody has any PT stats about how they have done in this situation?
Say 3+ villians in a raised pot and you are in the BB with any two suited J or lower not counting suited connectors and 1 gappers.
|
|
#24
03-06-2006, 05:42 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: 5/10 J6s
W.
Nice post. I did c/r. 2 comments.... 1. How does the tightness of the pfr affect your preflop and flop play. In other words, are you less interested in coming in at 7:1 preflop vs a 4% preflop raiser as opposed to a 11%, as was the case here. 2. No one has mention the coordinated nature of the board here. Granted, it is fairly low (and we are up agaisnt 2 tight and only 1 loosey), and rainbow, but it coordinated. I was curious if this would affect your flop decision. Say if it was a 2 tone board, are you still pulling the trigger? Or say 689 or 69T? --Rico
|
|
#25
03-06-2006, 05:43 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: 5/10 J6s
Niedem:
I ran a similar sim with suited junk out of the BB, 3 or more players, and a preflop raise. Over 131 instances, I was running at -.23BB/hand, FWIW. --Rico
|
|
#26
03-06-2006, 05:45 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: 5/10 J6s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] IMO, those that are saying to fold pre-flop play wayyy too tight from the blinds. [/ QUOTE ] Ditto. It's 5 handed. If you don't call this, are you folding your suited cards from the SB, when you should be completing? It's the same idea. - Zach [/ QUOTE ] How is paying half a small bet the same as calling a raise directly from your right (and who will then always bet after you) for a full small bet? And it's only 4 handed. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, noticed it was only 4 handed. Converter must have screwed up. Anyways. According to SSHE, we are supposed to complete the SB with any two suited cards, right? In a standard 2/4 game, an unraised pot should see 4/5 to the flop (I'm pulling that out of my ass, based on my observations from playing it). So we are calling getting like 9-1 ish from the SB, completing. In the BB, with the raise, we are getting effectively 7-1 on this call, 4 handed, unless the limpers fold for some reason (which RARELY happens, obviously). We also have great relative position on the PFR, and we are in a good spot to c/r to protect our hand on a favorable flop. We can also lead out with a FD, hoping he raises from LP, building a pot for us. - Zach [/ QUOTE ] The position we have only leaves us with the options of c/r or fold. Save a flush draw (or flush) we aren't going to have anything strong enough to lead out with against a PF raise. I would prefer that we at least have one high card or at least be somewhat connected to make this call. If we whiff on the flop we are dead in the water and if Villain shows some more aggression on the flop we are equally dead. Calling limpers for half a bet is one thing, but our hand is too weak to be calling raisers from our right, especially with two left to act after us. This whole hand will be an uphill battle, save your money for better odds.
|
|
#27
03-06-2006, 05:45 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: 5/10 J6s
[ QUOTE ]
Niedem: I ran a similar sim with suited junk out of the BB, 3 or more players, and a preflop raise. Over 131 instances, I was running at -.23BB/hand, FWIW. --Rico [/ QUOTE ] Smallish sample. I'm going to check my DB when I get home, although my sample is probably no bigger. - Zach
|
|
#28
03-06-2006, 05:49 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: 5/10 J6s
[ QUOTE ]
W. Nice post. I did c/r. 2 comments.... 1. How does the tightness of the pfr affect your preflop and flop play. In other words, are you less interested in coming in at 7:1 preflop vs a 4% preflop raiser as opposed to a 11%, as was the case here. 2. No one has mention the coordinated nature of the board here. Granted, it is fairly low (and we are up agaisnt 2 tight and only 1 loosey), and rainbow, but it coordinated. I was curious if this would affect your flop decision. Say if it was a 2 tone board, are you still pulling the trigger? Or say 689 or 69T? --Rico [/ QUOTE ] 1. That much of a differnce reall effects the read. The looser preflop raising standards they have the more apt I am to call with speculative hands. 2. The more coordinated this board gets the more it hurts you (with the exception of spades of course!). You're already on a weak enough hand, no need to continue with more of a disadvantage.
|
|
#29
03-07-2006, 07:29 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: 5/10 J6s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Niedem: I ran a similar sim with suited junk out of the BB, 3 or more players, and a preflop raise. Over 131 instances, I was running at -.23BB/hand, FWIW. --Rico [/ QUOTE ] Smallish sample. I'm going to check my DB when I get home, although my sample is probably no bigger. - Zach [/ QUOTE ] Suited junk from the BB, putting money in and at least four seeing the flop: -.05, 140 instances At least 3 seeing the flop, same otherwise: -.40, 281 instances From the SB, no raise, at least 4 seeing flop: -.21, 217 instances same, at least 3: -.15, 303 instances I don't have more instances because this isn't a play I make. The first BB number surprises me; prehaps that results from the times when the pot is at least 6-way instead of just 4-way. And IMO, this is an insta-fold preflop. This hand is absolutely TERRIBLE. And when there's 6-way action in a raised pot pf, you gotta figure at least two of your opponents are playing suited something. So half the time they'll have spades and half the time (I'd think) they'll have one higher than the J, further reducing your ev. I'd run 98o before I played this. I can't believe that it's even being debated. To me, the threshold is 4 other players in for the raise, and I'm still looking for trips or a 4-flush. FWIW, the very first situation I used PT for re ev was one-gapped suited cards. And kind of like those clinical trials where they stop the experiment, it was painfully obvious that one-gapped suited cards aren't worth much at all.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
