NLCash: Leading OOP

[TNixon]

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First, it's not a very believable bluff. Second, we lose tons of value with our strong hands.

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These two things cannot both be true.

If villain will call with weak holdings because it's "not a very believable bluff", then we're getting value in those situations with strong hands that we might not have got otherwise.

[mattak]

I like donking the flop vs. an opponent who just completes the SB. (Not that you run into to many of these). I find that punishing his limps by raising over top of him preflop too often will make him stop limping (which I want him to do) or make him defend and I will end up in bigger pots OOP.

Another place I like the donk bet on the flop is when I have a massive combo draw that I don't mind taking to the felt (straight flush draw, pair + OESD etc). If my opponent is the very aggressive type who will raise my bet almost automatically, I like to donk to induce a raise and then 3 bet all in. Most people would probably take the check raise line here and I certainly understand that, but its a nice way to mix it up and I dont mind building a pot OOP when I have 12-15 outs

[AbreuTime]

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First, it's not a very believable bluff. Second, we lose tons of value with our strong hands.

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These two things cannot both be true.

If villain will call with weak holdings because it's "not a very believable bluff", then we're getting value in those situations with strong hands that we might not have got otherwise.

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Cash-game players above 200NL have certain characteristics, many of which pertain to aggressiveness:
1) will cbet almost every pot
2) will CR (and expect to get CRed) many flops
3) will call donkbets rather light (often not raising), because CR collects their inevitable c-bet, so the range is often shifted toward draws.

Donkbetting is not as aggressive as CR (wrt to building the pot). I've seen people try to do it with [air, big draws, top pair] with limited success, because people dont tend to make huge mistakes in position. If they are calling 2 barrels of donks, then they are probably calling the flop CR (=more money in the pot in fewer streets).

**********Also, if you are donkbetting often, your check "range" can consequently become too polarized (big hands you want to CR and c/f hands), to allow villain to outplay you when you check. It is extremely difficult to balance both ranges (checking and donking), so people just focus on the checking range, since it picks up the c-bets.

[TNixon]

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=more money in the pot in fewer streets

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This isn't necessarily a good thing when you're OOP without a monster.

For what it's worth, I lead out with most of my monsters and lots of air, too, rather than check-raising. I don't really like to checkraise against any opponents except for the very top end of the agrodonk crowd.

Yeah, I miss out on a chance to take down their cbet, but cbets aren't always cbets, and you're risking far more chips with a c/r. In addition, if I donk with a wide range, including air, draws, marginal hands, and monsters, they're going to have a hard time putting me on a hand.

I'm also probably missing out on some value with some monsters by not giving them a chance to catch up on the turn, but if they call the flop, I feel like I'm much more likely to get called on all three streets, and more likely to be raised. C/r,bet,bet is probably going to lose a lot of hands on the turn and the river that would have called bets on all 3 streets if you just donked out.

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Also, if you are donkbetting often, your check "range" can consequently become too polarized

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This is definitely true, but since I donk big hands as well, a lot of the time when I check, I've already given up on the hand, so that's not really the crushing blow it could be otherwise.

Of course, maybe everything I've just said is completely retarded, and pure justification for donking out a lot while very rarely checkraising. I used to checkraise far too often, so it's entirely possible that I've swung too far the other direction.

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[MasterLJ]

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I like donking the flop vs. an opponent who just completes the SB. (Not that you run into to many of these). I find that punishing his limps by raising over top of him preflop too often will make him stop limping (which I want him to do) or make him defend and I will end up in bigger pots OOP.

Another place I like the donk bet on the flop is when I have a massive combo draw that I don't mind taking to the felt (straight flush draw, pair + OESD etc). If my opponent is the very aggressive type who will raise my bet almost automatically, I like to donk to induce a raise and then 3 bet all in. Most people would probably take the check raise line here and I certainly understand that, but its a nice way to mix it up and I dont mind building a pot OOP when I have 12-15 outs

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Chronic button limpers are almost always chronic flop minbettors. That's been one of the revelations in my game lately as I've been CRing them when they do this almost every time I have any equity at all (2 overs, gutshot+ overs to 2nd pair, any draw) and certain situations where they just don't have a hand often like A66 board, or JJT, or even AKQ. This has been wildly, wildly profitable and if I had just lead instead of CRed I'd be missing out on 0.5 PTBB's every time they had air.

[jay_shark]

You should vary the frequency of your donk bets and your check raises depending on the flow of the game . If your opponent is catching on to your check-raises , then certainly there will come a point where he will make a strategy change and check behind some flops . When this occurs , you change gears and donk some bets otf . After he catches on to this , you switch back to check-raising as a way to keep him guessing .

I find check-raising to be a valuable tool against an opponent who has shown pre-flop strength . If you're playing against an opponent who c-bets close to 100% of flops , then it's imperative that you check-raise oop . There is an inflection point where you would change to a donk bet and this comes with experience . If his c-bet drops to something like 60% , then it's a good idea to throw in some donk bets .

[TNixon]

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This has been wildly, wildly profitable and if I had just lead instead of CRed I'd be missing out on 0.5 PTBB's every time they had air.

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Agreed.

There a very significant difference between check-raising a limped pot and a raised one, though.

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[MasterLJ]

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This has been wildly, wildly profitable and if I had just lead instead of CRed I'd be missing out on 0.5 PTBB's every time they had air.

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Agreed.

There a very significant difference between check-raising a limped pot and a raised one, though.

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We were talking exclusively about button limpers in that case though.

[Floyd13]

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=more money in the pot in fewer streets

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This isn't necessarily a good thing when you're OOP without a monster.

For what it's worth, I lead out with most of my monsters and lots of air, too, rather than check-raising. I don't really like to checkraise against any opponents except for the very top end of the agrodonk crowd.

Yeah, I miss out on a chance to take down their cbet, but cbets aren't always cbets, and you're risking far more chips with a c/r. In addition, if I donk with a wide range, including air, draws, marginal hands, and monsters, they're going to have a hard time putting me on a hand.

I'm also probably missing out on some value with some monsters by not giving them a chance to catch up on the turn, but if they call the flop, I feel like I'm much more likely to get called on all three streets, and more likely to be raised. C/r,bet,bet is probably going to lose a lot of hands on the turn and the river that would have called bets on all 3 streets if you just donked out.

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Also, if you are donkbetting often, your check "range" can consequently become too polarized

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This is definitely true, but since I donk big hands as well, a lot of the time when I check, I've already given up on the hand, so that's not really the crushing blow it could be otherwise.

Of course, maybe everything I've just said is completely retarded, and pure justification for donking out a lot while very rarely checkraising. I used to checkraise far too often, so it's entirely possible that I've swung too far the other direction.

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The problem with all of this is that you rarely hold a monster and villian knows it. Therefore most of your donking range is marginal and very easy to play against in position. This is why my previous statements are not contradictory.

[daveT]

I think that you are talking about exploiting a specific opponent here. The ones you describe are perfect for this, and players at the 200s should be exploited this way if they auto-bet every time they are checked to. It sounds like you are playing massively stupid opponents, to be honest.

Are you also cr'ing your strong hands as well.

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C/r,bet,bet is probably going to lose a lot of hands on the turn and the river that would have called bets on all 3 streets if you just donked out.

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How much value do think this costs you in comparison to the bluffing?