Like it? Hate it?

[Fat Nicky]

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obv im wondering if u guys take this line though, or if u guys think it just takes my hand to value town against sets.

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if you're taking this line blind (no reads), then you'll probably usually be missing out on tons of value.

[markuisis]

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My thinking- When he leads into you on flop you are either WA or WB so the call is fine. Same goes on the turn when you get the nut draw. If you raise the worst hands all fold and you're left with the sets or maybe a button getting cute with aces or kings.

The question for me is- does KQ or QJ lead three times after the pf raiser calls him twice here?

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i think that a thinking player prob realizes my line is almost never a q and likely some sort of reluctant mid pair - which means that i think he will be value betting kq and qj occasionally and def aq, along with bluffing a decent amount of the time also, obviously a set plays this exact way too though but ive only gotta be right 1 in 3 times and i think he is bluffing or value betting thin at least that often.

[markuisis]

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obv im wondering if u guys take this line though, or if u guys think it just takes my hand to value town against sets.

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if you're taking this line blind (no reads), then you'll probably usually be missing out on tons of value.

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sry if i seem argumentative, but realistically, what hands r gonna be putting a lot more money in the pot that i have beat (this would essentially mean felting their hand since they would have to raise me at one point for the betting amounts to be different obviously)? do u think worse queens often raise these flops? I dont think so in the hands of a tag and generally i think kq and def qj would be very very reluctant to put in a 3rd call on the river essentially only beating a bluff (whereas if i check they figure they r good and value bet against my perceived jacks, tens etc.)

[Daddy Warbucks]

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i think that a thinking player prob realizes my line is almost never a q and likely some sort of reluctant mid pair - which means that i think he will be value betting kq and qj occasionally and def aq, along with bluffing a decent amount of the time also, obviously a set plays this exact way too though but ive only gotta be right 1 in 3 times and i think he is bluffing or value betting thin at least that often.

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A thinking player is rarely putting you on an underpair then giving you 3 streets of value. The more likely scenario is you lose at least one street of betting when they check behind for showdown value/pot control.

[markuisis]

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like lets say i lead this flop for 6 and i am raised to 22 - do u guys just dump the hand here? this is such a good board to raise against since ill miss it so often and most ppl wouldnt go nuts with a set on such a dry board. And if we r folding out aq on this board to any resistance then we can pretty much never ever take heat.

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we flopped TPTK against a pretty much unknown w/AQ, we should not be folding to a single flop raise ever.

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so u felt the flop beating only a bluff? do u cold call raise then c/c turn (if ur shoving flop over a 3bet thats pretty atrocious IMO)? isnt that essentially the same line i took except i keep these sa/wb (plus the occasional thin value bet) pots smaller. I dont mean to be annoying, just trying to debate it out.

[Fat Nicky]

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obv im wondering if u guys take this line though, or if u guys think it just takes my hand to value town against sets.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you're taking this line blind (no reads), then you'll probably usually be missing out on tons of value.

[/ QUOTE ]

sry if i seem argumentative, but realistically, what hands r gonna be putting a lot more money in the pot that i have beat (this would essentially mean felting their hand since they would have to raise me at one point for the betting amounts to be different obviously)? do u think worse queens often raise these flops? I dont think so in the hands of a tag and generally i think kq and def qj would be very very reluctant to put in a 3rd call on the river essentially only beating a bluff (whereas if i check they figure they r good and value bet against my perceived jacks, tens etc.)

[/ QUOTE ]

some players like to bluff raise flops. some players over play TPmidK. you don't have much of a read, so we don't really know this villains tendencies.

what i'm trying to say is, some players will call 3 streets w/QJ here. these same players might check behind a street w/that same hand. if you took this line against the player i'm describing, you missed value.

[megatron]

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My thinking- When he leads into you on flop you are either WA or WB so the call is fine. Same goes on the turn when you get the nut draw. If you raise the worst hands all fold and you're left with the sets or maybe a button getting cute with aces or kings.

The question for me is- does KQ or QJ lead three times after the pf raiser calls him twice here?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think that a thinking player prob realizes my line is almost never a q and likely some sort of reluctant mid pair - which means that i think he will be value betting kq and qj occasionally and def aq, along with bluffing a decent amount of the time also, obviously a set plays this exact way too though but ive only gotta be right 1 in 3 times and i think he is bluffing or value betting thin at least that often.

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I can't see myself making this river bet on this board with less than tptk.

[Fat Nicky]

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like lets say i lead this flop for 6 and i am raised to 22 - do u guys just dump the hand here? this is such a good board to raise against since ill miss it so often and most ppl wouldnt go nuts with a set on such a dry board. And if we r folding out aq on this board to any resistance then we can pretty much never ever take heat.

[/ QUOTE ]

we flopped TPTK against a pretty much unknown w/AQ, we should not be folding to a single flop raise ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

so u felt the flop beating only a bluff? do u cold call raise then c/c turn (if ur shoving flop over a 3bet thats pretty atrocious IMO)? isnt that essentially the same line i took except i keep these sa/wb (plus the occasional thin value bet) pots smaller. I dont mean to be annoying, just trying to debate it out.

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i'm usually not 3-betting this flop because the board is so dry. and callign a flop raise and checking to him on the turn is not the same as the line you took, your line doesn't earn as much money when ahead.

[markuisis]

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i think that a thinking player prob realizes my line is almost never a q and likely some sort of reluctant mid pair - which means that i think he will be value betting kq and qj occasionally and def aq, along with bluffing a decent amount of the time also, obviously a set plays this exact way too though but ive only gotta be right 1 in 3 times and i think he is bluffing or value betting thin at least that often.

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A thinking player is rarely putting you on an underpair then giving you 3 streets of value. The more likely scenario is you lose at least one street of betting when they check behind for showdown value/pot control.

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they arent putting me on an underpair or they arent putting me on an underpair that pays them off? I think my hands looks exaaactly like an underpair here and if they figure that im bluff catching with it - they could easily fire a big river bet (such as he did) representing a bluff, that being said, i still think his range is mostly polarized in between air and monsters with a value bet from a good queen every now and then.

[sh58]

just bet the turn. you are likely ahead, and have tonnes of outs to improve (don't forget the gutter). obviously call a raise.

as played call down.

c/r the Turn aint bad either