Preflop, Newbie Questions

[Barrin6]

Hand 1 is super standard to call flop.

[Noam Chomsky]

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meh, I actually four bet hand 1 a good percentage when I know I'm getting three bet light. If I don't, I'd probably call.

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I think this is a horrible play. Why on earth would you turn 99 into a bluff? Sure you might fold out TT-JJ, but you can just as easily do that with 57s. Are you praying he shoves AK back at you so you can call for a coin flip?

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Yeah, I could just as easily do that with 57s and probably would a fair amount.

I'm not "praying" for anything. I'll evaluate whatever he does in response and hope to make a good decision based off of that. Sometimes I might call, sometimes I'll fold quick.

Also, I'm not turning my hand into a bluff. Shoving this flop would be turning 99 into a bluff. Right now, the information that I have tells me that I'm likely being three bet light, that means, I think 99 is ahead of his range so I'm value betting. Surely you've bet for value and then folded before?

Calling preflop is ok sometimes but often it just nullifies the real value that your hand has, that is to say, 99 doesn't have a ton of value in a rr pot when you're not the one with the initiative after the flop a good third of the time. You're much more likely to make a bigger mistake later in this hand by calling preflop than you can possibly make by four betting now if you think you're being three bet light.

In my experience, in 85% of three bet pots, the winner is decided on the flop which is great when you three bet 89s get called by 99 and the flop comes AXX and you get to be the one to c-bet.

[Suigin406]

hand 1 i'd fold...

i call in hand 2 and get it in on most flops imo

[bagclip2007]

seems split on call and fold preflop in hand 1, i call for sure and fold flop with his stats

hand 2 i prolly dont 4 bet but call for sure and NEVER FOLD. and look for a decent flop and ship it

[Fat Nicky]

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seems split on call and fold preflop in hand 1, i call for sure and fold flop with his stats

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keep in mind the villain is betting near 100% of his range on the flop in hand 1.

if you're insta folding this flop, then you shouldn't call pre-flop.

thoughts?

[bagclip2007]

true, now that you say that it makes sence, i guess after rethinking i prolly have to acll the flop and see what comes on the turn. also i would like alittle history if he 2 barrels 3bets with nothing. vs unknown id be in a sticky spot

[AsydRayne]

4-betting 99 can only be for value if you're getting called by worse. The only (marginally) worse hand that I can see getting it in with you is AK and a lot of the time when you get it in you're drawing to 2 outs. 4-bet/fold is just spew most of the time.

I honestly think 4-betting with 99 is a leak unless you're up against a maniac and have been 4 betting all sorts of weak junk so he can call you with a lower pair/AQ/AJ/etc.

[bagclip2007]

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4-betting 99 can only be for value if you're getting called by worse. The only (marginally) worse hand that I can see getting it in with you is AK and a lot of the time when you get it in you're drawing to 2 outs. 4-bet/fold is just spew most of the time.

I honestly think 4-betting with 99 is a leak unless you're up against a maniac and have been 4 betting all sorts of weak junk so he can call you with a lower pair/AQ/AJ/etc.

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ya i would never 4 bet 99 preflop, unless it was a total meglo

[Noam Chomsky]

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4-betting 99 can only be for value if you're getting called by worse.

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I disagree. First, where do you draw the line? I don't see a lot of people stacking off for 100bbs with JJ but certainly nobody would argue that four betting QQ from the button would be a bluff. What about JJ? TT? AK?

Also, I think that there is value in your hand that you are preserving preflop but are losing on a large percentage of flops. I think you're underestimating the value of being the three bettor in a three bet pot. I also don't think you're putting any consideration into the enormous ancillary benefits of "taking back your button" by making it difficult for a blind to continuously three bet your opens from the button.

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The only (marginally) worse hand that I can see getting it in with you is AK and a lot of the time when you get it in you're drawing to 2 outs.

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ok, I still think that there are a lot of other ways in which you can benefit from doing this some percentage of the time.

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I honestly think 4-betting with 99 is a leak unless you're up against a maniac and have been 4 betting all sorts of weak junk so he can call you with a lower pair/AQ/AJ/etc.

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I'm certainly not advocating this as a standard line. In situations where you are opening from the button and being three bet from the blinds by someone who is habitually three betting you it is very profitable to have a healthy four betting range imo.


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4-bet/fold is just spew most of the time.

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lots of standard lines for a lot of 'good players' are spew most of the time, this one gets you a nice image and often times gets people to stop three betting you all together without premium hands.

[Unknown Soldier]

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Fold preflop twice. QQ is a close shove but dont call.

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why cant we call QQ?