Razz - playing the smooth hand

[Praxising]

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Do you realize how dead your cards are?

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Oh my gosh, betgo, of course I do! This thing just sucked tidewater, didn't it? What the hell was I thinking? Oh yeah, I WASN'T!!

Sorry I wasn't around today to keep encouraging everyone to find every single detail of badness in this terrible travesty of poker.

Oh wait, I have one disagreement. Being HU is just as beneficial in Razz, just as important, as in any other game. Maybe more important. However horrendous this hand was, and it was, the one thing I did right was raise to isolate. Oh, except I wouldn't have if I'd just FOLDED THE FREAKIN' HAND.

I'm telling everyone this is the result of a brain tumor. Uh-huh, uh-huh, that's what it was. You know, the 24-hour kind?

[roggles]

What I was getting at is that isolating doesn't seem to have nearly the benefits as it does in for example 2-7 triple draw. In lowball draw games you can isolate in LP and you have a MASSIVE positional advantage against just one other player. I raise super-light in late position in triple draw

Of course, I can't really beat $3/6 Razz full ring, so I don't get the game too well I guess. I don't usually raise with the worse hand if I think my opponent will 3-bet

[SGspecial]

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Of course, I can't really beat $3/6 Razz full ring, so I don't get the game too well I guess. I don't usually raise with the worse hand if I think my opponent will 3-bet

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This strategy will definitely help in your quest to beat 3/6.

[Praxising]

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What I was getting at is that isolating doesn't seem to have nearly the benefits as it does in for example 2-7 triple draw. In lowball draw games you can isolate in LP and you have a MASSIVE positional advantage against just one other player. I raise super-light in late position in triple draw

[/ QUOTE ] I'm delighted with the triple-draw lesson. But when you say "doesn't seem to have nearly the benefits" you make an unsupported statement. You originally said it wasn't "that important in Razz." You are incorrect, or at the very least, making a point which is moot.

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Of course, I can't really beat $3/6 Razz full ring, so I don't get the game too well I guess. I don't usually raise with the worse hand if I think my opponent will 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]Then you are right, you don't get the game too well. No matter how badly this particular hand was played on my part - and it was played badly - it's common in Razz to raise with the worst hand in certain situations where you still have the greater liklihood of winning by the river. You do this in holdem, also. And if you aren't going to raise because someone might three-bet, then you aren't going to be raising much at all.

As to your previous comment that it looked like massive tilt - of course it was. As defined in The Poker Mindset, "tilt" is any time you are not playing your best game. There is no one who plays poker who does not tilt. No one on this board, no one at any stakes in any game. I suppose I could just post all the hands I played really well, I suppose we all could. But no one would learn anything, would they? I challenge you, or everyone, to post their worst hands here. Believe me, I have more terrible hands than this one. It takes a lot of ..nerve.. to put your worst moments out for scrutiny. It's easier for me because I am old and long ago gave up giving a S what anyone thought of me. What I need, what we all need, is information.

Why is this hand so terrible? Because of all the bets and calls? No, that's just the continuation of the terrible. The hand is bad because I didn't just auto-fold 3rd. It's the worst 7 anyone can have, there's not one of my cards showing, and several cards I need are out. Limp/folding wouldn't be a bad play on 3rd, but not an optimal one.

Now, what's the real issue here? Not generally, but for me, personally - my game gets worse the lower stakes I play. You were right, of course, bad players get good hands. I posted this travesty because I have earned the bankroll to move up. But I can't, or won't I guess, until I fix this. Because every level, certainly including 2/4, will have tables of bad players. And I don't want to be doing this there when I've stopped being intimidated by the size of the pots and am taking shots at 3/6. I have to get control of this aspect of my game.

I'm actually thinking of taking my worst hand from every session and posting it here until I stop doing this. I know I can count on you to assist me in seeing the error of my ways.

BTW, my two absolute worst games are Stud Hi and 2-7 Triple Draw.

[roggles]

Folding this at any point on 3rd is a fairly ridiculous prospect

[adanthar]

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Folding this at any point on 3rd is a fairly ridiculous prospect

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no it's not

that said, I limp here and call 1 bet/fold to 2

[roggles]

You don't raise 765 just because there are two wheel cards behind you showing?

[betgo]

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Folding this at any point on 3rd is a fairly ridiculous prospect

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You have a junk hand. You have a very rough 7 with dead cards. You have too wheel cards in front of you. OK, to raise or limp and hope you don't get action. Continue only if you catch good and they catch bad or something like that.

[Praxising]

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You don't raise 765 just because there are two wheel cards behind you showing?

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OK. When you decide to enter a pot with a hand in Razz, your three cards are part of your decision-making. But only one part. I have gone in with a Ten and not been on a steal and I think if I posted the hand, players here would agree.

Part of what you take into consideration is the upcards. If some of your cards are showing, it makes it less likely you will pair - and if your opponent doesn't already have those low cards, it's less likely he will get them. All good things that make you likely to win if you play.

But, if there are a lot of cards showing that you need, it is likely any reasonable callers will have some of them and now there are "dead" ones on the board unavailable to you. Not a good thing.

If you can beat Razz at lower levels and are just not beating 3/6, it is because you aren't taking these things into account.

As for the other players - sometimes I have limped with a big hand because I know a real LAGGY player will probably come in and do my raising for me. Sometimes you limp with a marginal hand on a passive board when you know players just want to see 4th cheaply.

Some people think Razz is like craps with cards. You roll your low hands and see who wins. It's more complex than that.

When on my best game, I'd have limp-folded or just folded this hand in a heartbeat. This mess is my version of the "Mike Matesow blow-up."

And 765 is just the pits, anyway.

[*TT*]

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Also, raising to isolate isn't that important in Razz; it's not draw

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That's not true at all, raising to isolate is SUPER important in Razz. TT, one of the more weak-tight players on the forum (by admission and jest), routinely advocates raising to isolate hands that are weaker then those he advocates just calling when isolation isn't a factor. You want people OUT of your pot in razz.

-ChipsAhoya

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to clarify - I advocate doing this when it will work. for example 3rd street in this hand - yuck - that jam is sour [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] All the OP does is inflate the size of the pot, it wont serve any other purpose.

PS: I think its hysterical that I have been branded weak tight, I get a kick out of it! I prefer the term just tight, but I LOVE it when people think I am weak - its fantastic for my game [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]