25NL QQ in 4bet pot

[threads13]

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Because playing a big pair against a large field out of position sucks? Just my opinion. :/

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There are 4 players are on your left who may be way worse than this guy. Playing OOP against bad players isn't that bad. Also, what if one of the blinds is really bad? You certainly want to keep him in the pot.

[RapidEvolution]

I'm just more comfortable narrowing the field, narrowing UTG's range and being in position than playing what could be a large pot out of position against a large field. Is this wrong?

[Sounded Simple]

Gonna grunch this one....

For a solid player to 4-bet OOP (@NL25) I think the range is QQ+, (AK Maybe)
On the flop your
Crushed by AA/KK (most probable) or facing AK which has 10 outs against you.

Running some figures in my head quickly
~60% of the time your facing AA/KK = ~10% Equity (6%)
~30% of the time your facing AK = ~60% Equity (18%)
~10% your facing TT/JJ/Bluff = ~90% Equity (9%)

I estimate 33% equity even if we allow for AK a fair amount of the time.
I fold the flop as played.


A different line preflop could be to just call. His AF is massive so I might see if I could pick off a bluff on the flop - raising narrows his range so makes post flop easier I suppose.
(I might get flamed for suggesting this with QQ but I have no problem playing them for set value or keeping the pot small)
Once he 4-bets you know the c-bet is coming so I think we can call for set value.


Edit - Dont take those figures as gospel, I just did that quickly. Anyone agree/disagree with them?

[RapidEvolution]

Assuming we coldcall preflop and no one else comes in, do we call the flop bet or raise it? If we call the flop, do we c/c turn and river? Maybe a reason I prefer reraising here is because it makes playing postflop much easier.

[Sounded Simple]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming we coldcall preflop and no one else comes in, do we call the flop bet or raise it? If we call the flop, do we c/c turn and river? Maybe a reason I prefer reraising here is because it makes playing postflop much easier.

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Its true that the call puts you in a trickier spot so its probably the higher variance of the two.
I suppose you may need a better sample than 70 hands to be sure of how he plays.

I think no matter if you raise or call, having 77-JJ, AK bet into you when you have an overpair is +EV.
Would take some balls to call him down though.

The thing is if you had 66/77/88 in this spot you would be happy to just setmine or see what happens (re-raise his c-bet as a bluff perhaps)
So are we really losing all that much value playing QQ the same way?

I think QQ is overratted when there is a medium-high SPR since who is going to give you a lot of action when they cant beat a pair of queens?

So I think we either want a small pot or very big one (where you just shove flop and ride the variance) and since its not easy to get a pot that big by the flop with 100bb. Therefore I vote small pot.

[CaptVimes]

In the size of pot you created preflop, if villain shoved how can you not call? By 3 betting you've narrowed a tight players range to mostly hands that will beat you. He's basically gonna ditch most of the hands your ahead of. Plus you've also defined your hand as a big pair or AK. What's your biggest fear when playing big pair on a low flop with someone who just called your PF raise? Part of how we win is by sometimes, and at 25 I'm not sure how much this applies, getting the best hand to fold. In a bloated pot this guy will never lay down an over pair and he would be wrong to do so.

As far as a loose blind or loose bad player joining the fun that's just dead money in the pot usually with hand that I have a huge equity advantage over.

Yeah Threads you did.

[threads13]

[ QUOTE ]
In the size of pot you created preflop, if villain shoved how can you not call? By 3 betting you've narrowed a tight players range to mostly hands that will beat you. He's basically gonna ditch most of the hands your ahead of. Plus you've also defined your hand as a big pair or AK. What's your biggest fear when playing big pair on a low flop with someone who just called your PF raise? Part of how we win is by sometimes, and at 25 I'm not sure how much this applies, getting the best hand to fold. In a bloated pot this guy will never lay down an over pair and he would be wrong to do so.

As far as a loose blind or loose bad player joining the fun that's just dead money in the pot usually with hand that I have a huge equity advantage over.

Yeah Threads you did.

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Woo hoo!

[Johnes Benjamin]

As for the whole raise/call debate I think both have their merits and you need to decide which you are more comfortable with. It is always better to play in a manner where you feel confident. getting value from lesser holdings/folding out better holdings is very important. against a relative unknown this gets very tricky and I don't mind narrowing his range at all. Also, you obv. didn't know this preflop, but trying to fold out anything that beats you on this board is suicide.

Since you both have a 100BB stack left calling preflop is good.
Folding flop when you don't hit is good.

[threads13]

I still believe that if you are going to 3-bet, there is no need to 3-bet as large.

[Johnes Benjamin]

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I still believe that if you are going to 3-bet, there is no need to 3-bet as large.

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yeah, i'd probably make it 3 but not a big difference.
I think he was really scared of low PP coming along here and stacking him for 100BB+, and wanted to define villain's hand

I guess overall it comes down to not being super excited about playing deep, and if you are at all worried about that making the hand clearcut is a good way to move on to the next one