My Christianity: Free Will - Page 3

Mempho · #21 09-27-2007, 10:53 PM

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You assume the fact that just because God sees the future that it eliminates choice? Since God transcends time, does that mean that the choice never really existed?

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Not at all - I believe in an omniscient God and free will. I was merely pointing out that you havent explained how you think it's compatible. You introduced the topic as if you were going to provide an answer to the free will vs omniscience objection, then actually talked about the problem of evil existing.

I dont find the free will vs omniscience argument problematic, but I'm interested in hearing how others have solved it..

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Why does God's knowledge of an event beforehand necessitate that he must therefore influence that event? If an individual's choice is between telling the truth and telling a lie, then God's knowledge that the truth will be told does not mean that he has denied the individual of the opportunity to tell a lie.

Mempho · #22 09-27-2007, 10:55 PM

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Yep, he's in no way touched on the subject of omniscience and free will.

His story is about God intervening in other's choices, and has nothing to do with the fact that if God knows everything, free will cannot exist.

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So you are saying that an omnipotent God lacks the ability to grant free will in the presence of omniscience?

Mempho · #23 09-27-2007, 10:59 PM

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God gave humans free will. If humans did not have free will, they would be incapable of love, since they would be essentially be biological robots.

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Do dogs have free will, or are they robots? How about orang-utans? Did God infuse them with free will? Dolphins? Ants?

This is merely a question to understand the distinction you make between biological robots and creatures with free will.

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I see what you're saying but I couldn't give any kind of opinion on whether the Christian God being discussed here gave dogs free will because it's just not covered.

If you want me to just guess, then I'll play along and say that animals don't have free will (just to see where you're going with this).

bunny · #24 09-27-2007, 11:00 PM

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Why does God's knowledge of an event beforehand necessitate that he must therefore influence that event? If an individual's choice is between telling the truth and telling a lie, then God's knowledge that the truth will be told does not mean that he has denied the individual of the opportunity to tell a lie.

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Think about that. God knows I am about to tell a lie. I'm then asked a question. I start to ponder "Hmmm...should I tell the truth or not? Which way to go..." Do I really have a choice? It is impossible for me to tell the truth because then God is mistaken. So it feels like I'm choosing, but there is only one possible outcome - that's not a real choice, just the appearance of choice.

A more deeper objection, perhaps, is that God made me the way I am. He could have made me identical in every respect except for how I would respond in that situation. In other words, when I was created and the world interacted with me forming my personality God made a choice about whether to make this lying me or a hypothetical honest me. He chose the lying me (fully aware that the only result of choosing this one over that one was that I would lie in this situation). Now many years later, I make the choice in accord with my nature and lie - exactly as God knew I would and exactly as he chose I would when he rejected the other me. Who has the free will here?

vhawk01 · #25 09-27-2007, 11:07 PM

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You assume the fact that just because God sees the future that it eliminates choice? Since God transcends time, does that mean that the choice never really existed?

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Not at all - I believe in an omniscient God and free will. I was merely pointing out that you havent explained how you think it's compatible. You introduced the topic as if you were going to provide an answer to the free will vs omniscience objection, then actually talked about the problem of evil existing.

I dont find the free will vs omniscience argument problematic, but I'm interested in hearing how others have solved it..

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Why does God's knowledge of an event beforehand necessitate that he must therefore influence that event? If an individual's choice is between telling the truth and telling a lie, then God's knowledge that the truth will be told does not mean that he has denied the individual of the opportunity to tell a lie.

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Says you. But then, this is the conclusion you are trying to prove to us, so maybe you had better get on with that? You can't just assert your way to victory.

vhawk01 · #26 09-27-2007, 11:07 PM

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Yep, he's in no way touched on the subject of omniscience and free will.

His story is about God intervening in other's choices, and has nothing to do with the fact that if God knows everything, free will cannot exist.

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So you are saying that an omnipotent God lacks the ability to grant free will in the presence of omniscience?

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So you are saying an omnipotent God lacks the ability to make a square circle?

vhawk01 · #27 09-27-2007, 11:08 PM

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God gave humans free will. If humans did not have free will, they would be incapable of love, since they would be essentially be biological robots.

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Do dogs have free will, or are they robots? How about orang-utans? Did God infuse them with free will? Dolphins? Ants?

This is merely a question to understand the distinction you make between biological robots and creatures with free will.

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I see what you're saying but I couldn't give any kind of opinion on whether the Christian God being discussed here gave dogs free will because it's just not covered.

If you want me to just guess, then I'll play along and say that animals don't have free will (just to see where you're going with this).

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So dogs are biological robots?

Mempho · #28 09-27-2007, 11:08 PM

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you want to prove to other people that humans have free will.

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Just because your mind can comprehend a level of focus where all actions are involuntary doesn't make it a reality and doesn't disprove free will. I can imagine floating through outer space without a space suit. That doesn't disprove that humans need oxygen and a certain level of atmospheric pressurization in order to survive.

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where did i suggest that i thought i had disproved free will? where do i appear to be trying to disprove free will?

you're the one trying to prove things in this thread. my responses to you are intended to show that your arguments are faulty. this is what is happening.

you: X is true because of Y.
me: your argument fails to prove X.
you: your argument fails to prove not X.

you're right, but i don't know why you thought that was my goal.

what my post is intended to show is that we can agree that decisions are "voluntary" but disagree about whether they are the product of free will. do you see how this, if true, makes you point about "love in the bible being voluntary" moot?

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I didn't set out to "prove" anything, though. I set out to show that what I believe is possible. Now, if my logic can be proven false, then I would have to revise my thought process in some way.

I don't say that, "Here is proof of how it works."

I say, "Here is how I believe it works."

If my beliefs are not possible, that is when I would have to scrap at least part of my belief system.

vhawk01 · #29 09-27-2007, 11:10 PM

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you want to prove to other people that humans have free will.

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Just because your mind can comprehend a level of focus where all actions are involuntary doesn't make it a reality and doesn't disprove free will. I can imagine floating through outer space without a space suit. That doesn't disprove that humans need oxygen and a certain level of atmospheric pressurization in order to survive.

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where did i suggest that i thought i had disproved free will? where do i appear to be trying to disprove free will?

you're the one trying to prove things in this thread. my responses to you are intended to show that your arguments are faulty. this is what is happening.

you: X is true because of Y.
me: your argument fails to prove X.
you: your argument fails to prove not X.

you're right, but i don't know why you thought that was my goal.

what my post is intended to show is that we can agree that decisions are "voluntary" but disagree about whether they are the product of free will. do you see how this, if true, makes you point about "love in the bible being voluntary" moot?

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I didn't set out to "prove" anything, though. I set out to show that what I believe is possible. Now, if my logic can be proven false, then I would have to revise my thought process in some way.

I don't say that, "Here is proof of how it works."

I say, "Here is how I believe it works."

If my beliefs are not possible, that is when I would have to scrap at least part of my belief system.

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Are you aware that an infinite number of things are possible? Do you realize the uselessness of showing that something is possible?

bunny · #30 09-27-2007, 11:12 PM

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Are you aware that an infinite number of things are possible? Do you realize the uselessness of showing that something is possible?

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That's not actually useless - if someone argues that one of your beliefs is impossible then it is a necessary endeavour. The distinction is between showing it's possible and stating it's possible. There's certainly no value in just stating it.