AC question

[vhawk01]

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This seems like taking a problem, grossly over-simplifying it and then suggesting that in a relatively untried setting solving the problem won't be a problem or that it won't arise at all.

It actually worries me that the AC supporters seem so intent on reducing issues of complexity into extraordinarily simple equations with very clear causes and answers.

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And whenever they get into more detail about something that ther could not possibly begin to accurately predict, they ARE guilty of overstepping themselves and essentially just making things up based on wishful thinking. If people asked questions like "Give me 2 imaginary possibilities that you think have some chance of happening in an AC world" they might get answers. Instead, they ask "What would happen in an AC world" and the only correct answer is "I don't know but it would flow from these basic principles." After all, the only reason we have any idea whatsoever how these types of problems are "solved" in a statist society is because we've tried it out and seen how it went. It doesn't mean statism is somehow easier to predict (at least, not in any flattering way) or that it provides more concrete, practical solutions than ACism.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

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i have a limited understanding of AC, but i have seen it mentioned that stuff will sort itself out. in the third world country where i live, it is widely known the police work as follows:

if you commit a crime, you can pay a fine to not go to jail.

if someone commits a crime against you, tipping the police will help them resolve the issue faster (if at all).

so essentially, law enforcement is a business and you can see that poor people without financial means will get screwed over.

?

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The question of law enforcement will always be a big one. AC doesn't suggest that things will merely "work themselves out." It suggests that we can work things out.

The police in your country are given power by the government to do (basically) whatever they please.

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The police in my country purchase power from the government to own law enforcement. If you want to become a police chief you pay the mayor, if you want to become a police officer you pay the police chief. So it seems like its capitalism at work to me.

[Nielsio]

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i have a limited understanding of AC, but i have seen it mentioned that stuff will sort itself out. in the third world country where i live, it is widely known the police work as follows:

if you commit a crime, you can pay a fine to not go to jail.

if someone commits a crime against you, tipping the police will help them resolve the issue faster (if at all).

so essentially, law enforcement is a business and you can see that poor people without financial means will get screwed over.

?

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The question of law enforcement will always be a big one. AC doesn't suggest that things will merely "work themselves out." It suggests that we can work things out.

The police in your country are given power by the government to do (basically) whatever they please.

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The police in my country purchase power from the government to own law enforcement. If you want to become a police chief you pay the mayor, if you want to become a police officer you pay the police chief. So it seems like its capitalism at work to me.

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Under AC, there is no power you can buy. By your illustration, we find exactly the reason for power; to sell it/use it.

Let me put it another way: is it voluntary? Only if it's voluntary can it be capitalism. Extortion by the local police is not capitalism, it's rogue/criminal. Extortion by the national state is not capitalism, it's rogue/criminal.

AC means not believing in a rogue/criminal organization such as the local police or the national state.

[Borodog]

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i have a limited understanding of AC, but i have seen it mentioned that stuff will sort itself out. in the third world country where i live, it is widely known the police work as follows:

if you commit a crime, you can pay a fine to not go to jail.

if someone commits a crime against you, tipping the police will help them resolve the issue faster (if at all).

so essentially, law enforcement is a business and you can see that poor people without financial means will get screwed over.

?

[/ QUOTE ]

The question of law enforcement will always be a big one. AC doesn't suggest that things will merely "work themselves out." It suggests that we can work things out.

The police in your country are given power by the government to do (basically) whatever they please.

[/ QUOTE ]
The police in my country purchase power from the government to own law enforcement. If you want to become a police chief you pay the mayor, if you want to become a police officer you pay the police chief. So it seems like its capitalism at work to me.

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Capitalism is a system of social order based upon private property in all orders of goods and volutary exchange, facilitated by a commodity money.

What you are talking about is a grant of monopoly privelege by the state, specifically the privelege of committing legitimized crime. That doesn't have anything to do with capitalism, and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with the absence of a state, since it is the state selling the privelege.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

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i have a limited understanding of AC, but i have seen it mentioned that stuff will sort itself out. in the third world country where i live, it is widely known the police work as follows:


if you commit a crime, you can pay a fine to not go to jail.

if someone commits a crime against you, tipping the police will help them resolve the issue faster (if at all).

so essentially, law enforcement is a business and you can see that poor people without financial means will get screwed over.

?

[/ QUOTE ]

The question of law enforcement will always be a big one. AC doesn't suggest that things will merely "work themselves out." It suggests that we can work things out.

The police in your country are given power by the government to do (basically) whatever they please.

[/ QUOTE ]
The police in my country purchase power from the government to own law enforcement. If you want to become a police chief you pay the mayor, if you want to become a police officer you pay the police chief. So it seems like its capitalism at work to me.

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Capitalism is a system of social order based upon private property in all orders of goods and volutary exchange, facilitated by a commodity money.

What you are talking about is a grant of monopoly privelege by the state, specifically the privelege of committing legitimized crime. That doesn't have anything to do with capitalism, and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with the absence of a state, since it is the state selling the privelege.

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Why does the state exist in the first place? Human beings form groups and fight with other human groups for power. States are a byproduct of human nature. AC reminds me a lot of Communism, its an ideal theory on paper of what could happen that disregards history and human nature.

My wife is murdered in an AC society. Please explain the process of what will happen after the murder takes place.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

"Extortion by the national state is not capitalism, it's rogue/criminal."

A national state is the result of one group gaining a monopoly over other groups. Do you believe that this is preventable in an AC society?

[vhawk01]

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i have a limited understanding of AC, but i have seen it mentioned that stuff will sort itself out. in the third world country where i live, it is widely known the police work as follows:


if you commit a crime, you can pay a fine to not go to jail.

if someone commits a crime against you, tipping the police will help them resolve the issue faster (if at all).

so essentially, law enforcement is a business and you can see that poor people without financial means will get screwed over.

?

[/ QUOTE ]

The question of law enforcement will always be a big one. AC doesn't suggest that things will merely "work themselves out." It suggests that we can work things out.

The police in your country are given power by the government to do (basically) whatever they please.

[/ QUOTE ]
The police in my country purchase power from the government to own law enforcement. If you want to become a police chief you pay the mayor, if you want to become a police officer you pay the police chief. So it seems like its capitalism at work to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Capitalism is a system of social order based upon private property in all orders of goods and volutary exchange, facilitated by a commodity money.

What you are talking about is a grant of monopoly privelege by the state, specifically the privelege of committing legitimized crime. That doesn't have anything to do with capitalism, and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with the absence of a state, since it is the state selling the privelege.

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Why does the state exist in the first place? Human beings form groups and fight with other human groups for power. States are a byproduct of human nature. AC reminds me a lot of Communism, its an ideal theory on paper of what could happen that disregards history and human nature.

My wife is murdered in an AC society. Please explain the process of what will happen after the murder takes place.

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Security agency rounds him up, he is tried in court, and he is excluded from society.

[xxThe_Lebowskixx]

Boro, thanks for the pm but I think its easier to keep everything in the thread:

"The philosophical and theoretical underpinnings of free market anarchism are vast, and it took me years of studying to finally "buy in.""

If these theories are so complicated that they can't be explained in simple, logical, easy to understand terms, it makes me doubtful that they are anything more then a philosophy. I can read Kant or Kafka and they might connect all the dots to arrive at a certain destination, but that doesn't mean that is correct. Things like math, science, human nature, and economics don't take years of studying to buy into. I can't think of anything that takes years to buy into.

[Borodog]

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i have a limited understanding of AC, but i have seen it mentioned that stuff will sort itself out. in the third world country where i live, it is widely known the police work as follows:


if you commit a crime, you can pay a fine to not go to jail.

if someone commits a crime against you, tipping the police will help them resolve the issue faster (if at all).

so essentially, law enforcement is a business and you can see that poor people without financial means will get screwed over.

?

[/ QUOTE ]

The question of law enforcement will always be a big one. AC doesn't suggest that things will merely "work themselves out." It suggests that we can work things out.

The police in your country are given power by the government to do (basically) whatever they please.

[/ QUOTE ]
The police in my country purchase power from the government to own law enforcement. If you want to become a police chief you pay the mayor, if you want to become a police officer you pay the police chief. So it seems like its capitalism at work to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Capitalism is a system of social order based upon private property in all orders of goods and volutary exchange, facilitated by a commodity money.

What you are talking about is a grant of monopoly privelege by the state, specifically the privelege of committing legitimized crime. That doesn't have anything to do with capitalism, and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with the absence of a state, since it is the state selling the privelege.

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Why does the state exist in the first place?

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Why do churches exist?

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Human beings form groups and fight with other human groups for power.

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Sometimes.

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States are a byproduct of human nature.

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Well, states certainly aren't incompatible with human nature. But they also certainly aren't inevitable, since innumerable stateless societies have existed stably for many thousands of years.

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AC reminds me a lot of Communism, its an ideal theory on paper of what could happen that disregards history and human nature.

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You don't have idea what the theory states, so how do you know what it says or doesn't say about history or human nature?

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My wife is murdered in an AC society. Please explain the process of what will happen after the murder takes place.

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You call your insurance company, they track down the murderer, and make him pay.

[Nielsio]

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"Extortion by the national state is not capitalism, it's rogue/criminal."

A national state is the result of one group gaining a monopoly over other groups. Do you believe that this is preventable in an AC society?

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I absolutely do. The first step is to stop believing in and supporting criminal organizations. This support is the only reason why they can sustain itself for longer periods of time. EDIT: Iraq is a good example of what happens to coercive monopolies who are viewed for exactly what they are.


It helps if you start looking at actions rather than collectives. Only people can act; not collectives. So it doesn't matter if GW declares war, it matters that soldiers sign up to kill *for him*. Same thing applies to police officers kidnapping people and others holding people in dungeons. AC means holding people individually responsible for their actions. An ACist does not support the troops. An ACist does not support a police man doing his job if his job involves aggressing against other people.


So do you see how people have double standards? When the police storms a house, sets it on fire, starts shooting at it from outside, even though there are children and whatnot inside, then it's ok because it's "the law". But when the suggestion is raised that other people also ought do this, then those are labeled as psychopathic killers.


Exploring these double standards through applying moral rules consistently:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux7.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux9.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/molyneux/molyneux10.html