Calldowns vs lagtard

[Absolution]

[ QUOTE ]
A good LAG doesnt steal 90%

A good 45/30 LAG steals about 55%. Has a fold SB to steal at 65% (he doesnt necessarily 3-bet everytime) and a fold BB to steal below 30.

The only difference on a good LAG and a TAG is that a good LAG steals more hands, defends more blinds and 3-bets more in position. The good LAG doesnt cold call or open limp and neither does he raise K8o UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 3-betting more in position is interesting. Do you mean the guys that 3-bet my early position raises with QJs? I like those guys for what it's worth.

[Oink]

proly more like 3-betting my CO raise with JTo OTB. That really bugs me.

You might like it. But I never love being 3-bet OOP with a marginal hand.

[thepizzlefosho]

oink is pretty much right on all accounts. if you guys are disagreeing you are simply in denial. Those players that play very well postflop, can adapt to the table conditions and play 45/25, are going to find themselves in more +EV situations than people playing 25/18. They may have greater variance, but their long term winrate should be much better. Add into the fact that their style is the most frustrating and difficult for 25/18 types to play against and you can understand why good players tend to get more and more LAGGY as they increase stakes (and a higher % of players are TAG grinders).

Every level I have moved up I have found myself opening up more and more in late position, three betting more from late position to isolate guys that raise 18%+ pf, and defending more from the blinds. When I first took shots at 5/10 and I didn't do this I essentially got run over, and then got super frustrated because I was getting run over and had no idea what to do about it.

there is a reason that stox's hand chart is pretty wide open from late position. And I think a lot of great players can open it up even further depending on the players and their postflop play.

[Absolution]

I'm not disagreeing with him. We original were talking about 2 different players. He's talking about a tough player who will 3-bet CO steals lightly, steal a lot, defend a lot and then play well in position post-flop. Those guys are difficult to play against and the most profitable short-handed poker player is probably the guy that can get away with this as much as possible since it increases his Shania while only adding more variance and neutral EV plays.

[Hamlet]

Yes, you'll have to defend more against LAGs.

I'm not particularly attached to my brand of pre-flop play being optimal. I'm fairly new to 6-max, and I play fairly tight because I'm not all that good. I play one table at a time, and only have about 2000 hands of 2-4 6-max under my belt. So far so good [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

What is Stellarwind?

Some of you folks must have a lot of pokertracker hands. Are a fair number of these 40-45/30 people winning a lot after say 50k of hands?

[ QUOTE ]

And loose lots of money folding your blinds too much. I am not saying you cant adapt. But to tighten up vs a LAG is wrong!

Nobody wants to accept that a 45/30 guy can win lots of monies cuz that will mean that our own 25/18 style is suboptimal.

These preflop debates really suffers from preconcieved notions about "optimal preflop play". It is quite natural for anyone to think that his preflop strategy is optimal, cuz why else would he play it? But no one has ever presented any evidence that the LAGs are loosing. On the contrary, Stellarwind has presented evidence that LAGs win more than TAGs.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Hamlet]

They are also going to play a lot more hands from way behind pre-flop for enough bets that they'll be stuck chasing and paying off a lot. If someone opens in the cut-off with ATo, and he 3-bets them with A5o from the button, I don't believe he is going to win money doing that, especially when they start capping it everytime he 3-bets.

His constant defense of his BB is going to put him in a lot of dominated situations out of position. Granted, he has some pot odds, but if he takes J7o up against TT enough out of position, I think he is going to lose.

Pokertracker should have the answer, though.

[ QUOTE ]
oink is pretty much right on all accounts. if you guys are disagreeing you are simply in denial. Those players that play very well postflop, can adapt to the table conditions and play 45/25, are going to find themselves in more +EV situations than people playing 25/18. They may have greater variance, but their long term winrate should be much better. Add into the fact that their style is the most frustrating and difficult for 25/18 types to play against and you can understand why good players tend to get more and more LAGGY as they increase stakes (and a higher % of players are TAG grinders).

Every level I have moved up I have found myself opening up more and more in late position, three betting more from late position to isolate guys that raise 18%+ pf, and defending more from the blinds. When I first took shots at 5/10 and I didn't do this I essentially got run over, and then got super frustrated because I was getting run over and had no idea what to do about it.

there is a reason that stox's hand chart is pretty wide open from late position. And I think a lot of great players can open it up even further depending on the players and their postflop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
What is Stellarwind?


[/ QUOTE ]

he is a mod. You can search for his posts. he made an excellent post last year in which he presented the same results that I am pushing here. 25/18 TAGs er dead at mid to high stakes and 35-45/22-28 LAG/TAGs are doing fine.


[ QUOTE ]
Are a fair number of these 40-45/30 people winning a lot after say 50k of hands?


[/ QUOTE ]

I dont have that many hands on any player. I dont know whether the 45/30 LAGs are winning. But I know that at party and stars you see more LAG regulars than TAG regulars.


I see you play 2/4. Anything I have said so far does not apply to small stakes. I doubt playing LAG at 2/4 is profitable due to the rake.

[thepizzlefosho]

[ QUOTE ]
They are also going to play a lot more hands from way behind pre-flop for enough bets that they'll be stuck chasing and paying off a lot. If someone opens in the cut-off with ATo, and he 3-bets them with A5o from the button, I don't believe he is going to win money doing that, especially when they start capping it everytime he 3-bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

first off 3-betting with A5o would be a pretty bad play. But 3-betting with QJo, JTs, 98s, or a small pkt pair? now those are reasonable plays. you have position, initiative, and a hand that is probably at worse a small dog against your opponents range. Plus they typically will have to tip the strength of their hand in order to gain value (cap pf or c/r the flop) and if you don't have the best hand you can fold. When neither person flops something your 3-bet preflop will often win the hand when you fire a couple more times and they fold a better hand, or they get stuck trying to call down with A-high and you get to value bet to death everytime you flop a pair, and take free cards at will.

Just because you open up and play LAGGY doesn't mean you start 3-betting TAGs with dominated hands. 3-Betting TAGs with a decent range can be profitable, but not with dominated Arags and the like.

[Hamlet]

Agreed. Very few of the LAGs I encounter at 2/4 play all that well post-flop, even compared to my rather marginal skills. I do run into a few that play well. They still get caught in a lot of bad situations because they are in a capped pot against my AK with KJ. I get outplayed a lot after the flop, but I get to showdown and win most of the pots.

I'm assuming that higher limit play will require playing more hands, since blind stealing will be more frequent. I'm just a little skeptical that you can get to 45% and still do well.

I'll look for Stellarwind's stuff.

[ QUOTE ]
I see you play 2/4. Anything I have said so far does not apply to small stakes. I doubt playing LAG at 2/4 is profitable due to the rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Hamlet]

But QJo, JTs and small pocket pairs will be dominated an awful lot. They'll never be a large favorite. I don't think you'll be just a small dog to his range. I would assume that the TAG is going to learn to just cap his entire raising range against the LAG.

Yes, position will be a big factor, but I don't think it will be enough to make the very light 3-bet a winning play against a decent TAG.


[ QUOTE ]
first off 3-betting with A5o would be a pretty bad play. But 3-betting with QJo, JTs, 98s, or a small pkt pair? now those are reasonable plays. you have position, initiative, and a hand that is probably at worse a small dog against your opponents range. Plus they typically will have to tip the strength of their hand in order to gain value (cap pf or c/r the flop) and if you don't have the best hand you can fold. When neither person flops something your 3-bet preflop will often win the hand when you fire a couple more times and they fold a better hand, or they get stuck trying to call down with A-high and you get to value bet to death everytime you flop a pair, and take free cards at will.

Just because you open up and play LAGGY doesn't mean you start 3-betting TAGs with dominated hands. 3-Betting TAGs with a decent range can be profitable, but not with dominated Arags and the like.

[/ QUOTE ]