LC: exploiting a strange pf strategy HU

[ymu]

Devin - I play 6MAX at a small European site at the ~$16 equivalent in euros. It's not unusual to be at the bubble in level 1 (BB=25), the mode is level 2, very rare not to get there by level 3 (BB=100). Starting stacks 1500.

I've been experimenting a bit with HU - mainly because I don't allow myself to move up until my finish distribution looks right (helps focus the mind).

I outlined what I do (currently) in my first post (I limp every hand to keep it small and then pot most flops). I know it's not going to be optimal against good players, but these guys are as clueless about HU as I am, and so far I've found that it puts them way off balance. Some just start open pushing with 60BBs, some start c/r'ing but if they do it too often I just raise back and they get shy again, some start floating a lot but fold the turn to a second barrel, some start raising decent hands and auto-pushing any flop for stupid overbets, unless they actually hit something, so that's kind of easy to exploit too. If I hit a real hand on a flop they also hit, it's usually all over.

Even if we're not that deep, the first few hands before they start playing back can often get me enough of a cushion in terms of chip lead to be able to test them out a bit in bigger pots without worrying.

If/as we get shorter, I switch to push/fold latish if they're not adjusting well, and sometimes earlier if they're getting very aggro preflop.

It's not going to be useful in tournies which rarely start HU that deep.


E2A: Just to add, the reason I started with this strategy is that, although I'm clueless about HU play, my post-flop play improved a lot when I switched to mostly cash for a while. When I got back into STTs I noticed how bad most of the villains were postflop. If I do have an edge postflop, I should be trying to see as many flops as possible HU (where ICM don't matter) and they should be trying to stop me. That's why I limp.

[BicVicTheQuick]

Hey Devin,

Would it be possible for you to post your calculations.
I'm facing a lot of this min. raising guys so this sounds really interesting to me!

THANKS!!

[ceavou22]

Want to add a few points about HU play. In most cases at the end of an SNG (especially turbos) your obviously not going to be deep enough, as Devin has pointed out, to play postflop on any hands. So you must employ push/fold in this case. Generally if you are at t400 BB or greater in 9 man SNGs you won't have enough chips to be deep.

But its not uncommon to reach HU at t200 or t200 w 25 antes and have around 6000 chips or even 4000 and thus be deep enough to play postflop (obviously until you reach around 10 BB - then its push/fold).

So assuming were deep enough to play, HU is all about having the button. So min-raising/3x every SB is not entirely horrible, in general you should be trying to put in more money in on your button and less OOP. Cold calling alot of raises OOP is very bad, in general try to only fold or 3-bet your good hands OOP. On your button you should be raising probably 70% (3x, 2.5x, min raise is all ok) of hands. Of course its fine to limp on your button with some hands and depending on your oponent. Also don't be tempted to play every hand, its fine to open fold trashy hands.

So OOP, if you are being minraised/3x alot just 3-bet looser but don't be tempted to cold call too much. Remember button is everything.

All that being said I think playing proper HU strategy is more applicable for non-turbos as even if your deep enough to play in a turbo its difficult to apply any advantage you have with deeper stacks for a meaningfull number of hands before blinds rise again. But I guess it gives you some edge and having more 1st place finishes will boost your ROI.

[ymu]

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So assuming were deep enough to play, HU is all about having the button. So min-raising/3x every SB is not entirely horrible

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Not unless you can find a huge hole in Josem's post (doubtful), and definitely not if Devin's right. He thinks if you do it every hand then your opponent can profitably push over you every time. And I'm inclined to believe that he got his sums right until I have proof that he didn't. Regardless, Josem's point stands. It's a terrible strategy.

As for the rest - it's orthodox and logical, but it's not necessarily optimal. You can't just play a HU strategy and expect it to work equally well against every opponent. HU has not been "solved" for deep stacks, and ICM doesn't help us here.

I didn't just invent the idea that if you have an edge post-flop you should see many flops as cheaply as possible. And the OP did not invent the idea that if your opponent has an edge post flop you should just push preflop. I couldn't tell you the authors or the articles, but there are several on exactly this issue, and it frequently comes up in the pro commentary on HU matches in those shitey celebrity-pro tourneys.

[ceavou22]

ymu, Lol of course its not an optimal strategy for HU. What I was trying to outline was a basic guidline for playing HU with deep stacks. Thats all, just the bare basic strategy u shud start with for deep stacks HU. Also i'm not disagreeing with whats already being said, it definetley is unexploitable to push over the raises from the SB in our BB (just as it is unexploitable to push 100% in your own SB).

My point is that in some cases we are deep enough to play postflop and applying an advantage we have here could be more +$EV than pushing (which is still always +$EV but possibly less than our advantage playing postflop).

Although I might be wrong in assuming our +cEV advantage playing good HU poker will translate into +$EV? And if does then will Postflop_Play(+$EV) > Unexploitable_Play(+$EV) ever?

Peace. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Velocity]

if bes minraising every time you should be shoving a lot. like a super lot.

[ymu]

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ymu, Lol of course its not an optimal strategy for HU. What I was trying to outline was a basic guidline for playing HU with deep stacks. Thats all, just the bare basic strategy u shud start with for deep stacks HU. Also i'm not disagreeing with whats already being said, it definetley is unexploitable to push over the raises from the SB in our BB (just as it is unexploitable to push 100% in your own SB).

My point is that in some cases we are deep enough to play postflop and applying an advantage we have here could be more +$EV than pushing (which is still always +$EV but possibly less than our advantage playing postflop).

Although I might be wrong in assuming our +cEV advantage playing good HU poker will translate into +$EV? And if does then will Postflop_Play(+$EV) > Unexploitable_Play(+$EV) ever?

Peace. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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cEV=$EV HU? We're only fighting over the last 20% of the prize pool - we've both got 30% locked up.

Couldn't agree more about post-flop - I switched from 10 man regulars to 6 man turbos because (at my site) we were getting so much more play ITM and HU.

The main point, I think, is that if raising on your button with a wide range of hands is a good idea (it is), that does not appear to extend to raising every hand on your button. I guess that would lead to an optimal button raise frequency but I'm too tired to even tackle the Devin theorem properly right now, let alone wrap my brain around that one.

[futuredoc85]

lol @ this whole thread. hay guys, lets have a 98948598 post discussion about how to exploit someone giving us unexploitable button pushes every single hand.

[BicVicTheQuick]

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Also don't be tempted to play every hand, its fine to open fold trashy hands.



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There are no trash hands in heads up! You will always get the correct odds to complete while beeing the small blind even with 23o!! Or am I missing something here??

Of course this is not true if your opp. will raise you frequently (as he should).

[futuredoc85]

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Also don't be tempted to play every hand, its fine to open fold trashy hands.



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There are no trash hands in heads up! You will always get the correct odds to complete while beeing the small blind even with 23o!! Or am I missing something here??

Of course this is not true if your opp. will raise you frequently (as he should).

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you're missing something, starting w/ the fact that you cant reload and stacks are shallow.